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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:08 pm 
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To drive home this point:

Me wrote:
...This election was an absolute indictment of the Obama/Liberal agenda in this country. Anyone with a drop of political savy understands the implications of what happened last night. In Massachusetts, one of the most liberal states in the country, despite effots by the national Democratic political machine and stumping by a former and current president, for a congressional seat held by the "Liberal Lion" of the Senate, the Democratic candidate was not just beaten but trounced.

Not only was she trounced, but she, a well known, widely supported, and entrenched Attorney General lost in districts no Democrat has lost in longer than anyone can remember. She lost in Hyannisport. She lost in Barney Frank's district.

She lost to a virtually unknown libertarian conservative Republican who ran on a single platform. Lowering taxes, and stopping this version of healthcare "reform".

Democrats who wish to remain in office, and in power are going to run away from this in droves. Because if this can happen to a 4-1 favorite in Massachusetts running for the Kennedy seat on his legacy of healthcare, then it can and most certainly will happen to them.

The American people are waking up (...) and they are angry.


The Democratic Overlords and Gatekeepers know it as well, as political dynasty shys away from national spotlight. The son of the Vice President, who has been being groomed for this seat for years, knows which way the wind is blowing.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/senate/biden-will-not-run-for-fathers.html?wprss=thefix

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Beau Biden will not run for father's former Senate seat

Delaware Attorney General Beau Biden will not run for his father's former Senate seat, he announced via email to supporters this morning.

"I have a duty to fulfill as Attorney General -- and the immediate need to focus on a case of great consequence," Biden wrote. "And that is what I must do. Therefore I cannot and will not run for the United States Senate in 2010. I will run for reelection as Attorney General."

The decision is a huge blow for Senate Democrats who had long insisted Biden was a certain candidate. Republican Rep. Mike Castle is now a strong favorite for the open seat.

Of Biden's decision, Castle said: "I respect Beau Biden's decision to remain focused on his significant responsibilities as Delaware's Attorney General."

The certainty of a Biden candidacy had declined significantly in recent weeks due, at least in part to an ongoing investigation into an alleged pedophile pediatrician being conducted by his office.

Biden also may have had doubts about a candidacy in the wake of the defeat of state Attorney General Martha Coakley in a Massachusetts special election, a race cast as a sign of just how bad the national environment had grown for Democrats.

With Biden out, Democrats are likely to turn to Newcastle County Executive Chris Coons as their preferred candidate although there is sure to be some chatter that former Lt. Gov. John Carney will switch from the House race to the Senate contest. Carney is, however, leery of leaving a near sure thing House seat to take on Castle, one of the state's best known and most popular politicians.

Interim Sen. Ted Kaufman, a longtime staffer to then Sen. Joe Biden, reiterated this morning that he will not be a candidate for the remaining four years of the term in 2010. "I will not seek election for the balance of the term," said Kaufman in a statement released this morning.

No matter who Democrats nominate, however, Castle is a clear favorite.

Biden's decision comes only a few weeks removed from Sen. Byron Dorgan's (D-N.D.) decision not to run for re-election. Dorgan's departure led to the candidacy of popular Gov. John Hoeven (R) while Democrats have yet to find a candidate in the Republican-leaning state.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:18 pm 
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It cannot be emphasized enough: the Republicans had better not think the problems of the Democrats translate into a mandate for the Republicans to do whatever they want. If they re-gain power in the House or Senate then start running things like Democrat-lights, such as they did in recent history, they'll find themselves out on their kiesters, too, and deservedly so. It's time for the Republicans to act like fiscally conservative Republicans and they'll do fine. Spend money like Democrats, and they're in for a shock.

There are lessons to be learned from the populace. Both parties had better wise up.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:22 pm 
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I find myself in 100% agreement. I believe the movement will cost Senator McCain his seat. Good riddance.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:40 pm 
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I think recent history demonstrates this. In the 90's, people were fed up with Congress and gave power to the Republicans, because they wanted change. So the Republicans, over time, delivered "change", all right: they decided to spend money like they were Democrats. After so much of this, along comes '08, and once again the public kicked the party in power out and gave it to the Democrats. To the surprise of many, (but not all, because many of us knew the Democrats had not changed their spots), the Democrats completely misunderstood what was happening and immediately started their big spending ways, and now only a year later they are in serious trouble of their own. Why? Because they do not understand what "change" the public is expecting; they thought "change" meant more spending than the Republicans - spending being the very thing that got the Republicans kicked out in the first place!

In the 90's, if the public wanted to continue spending like Democrats, there was no need to elect Republicans. In '08, if the public wanted big spending, they did not need to kick the Republicans out and give power to the Democrats. Will the politicians learn? We'll see.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:14 pm 
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I think we'll be alright if the public realize that politians of both parties need constant monitoring. Like any spoiled child if left completely to their own devices they will invariably go crazy.

As glad as I am that Scott brown was elected i'd be certainly keeping my eye on him if he were my senator.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:16 pm 
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the new 41/59 supermajority is certainly a mandate for conservative governance....

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Monte wrote:
the new 41/59 supermajority is certainly a mandate for conservative governance....


You clearly don't get it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:09 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Monte wrote:
the new 41/59 supermajority is certainly a mandate for conservative governance....


You clearly don't get it.


No, he does not. He makes that clear with every derogatory dismissal of the tea partiers as fringe elements without realizing that they are really main stream, center-right folks who are fed up with both parties acting like they're spending money they earned, rather than knowing they're spending money that they have taken from the public.

The party who finally gets it and acts on it rather than acting derogatory, or giving lip service to the anger but ignoring it in the way they govern, is the party that is gonna grasp the initiative and hold it for a good long time. If the Democrats wanna start governing center-right, rather than far left, ......

*edit* You see, this is where even Libertarians fail. Many of the fiscal issues espoused by the Libertarian party would seemingly fit right in with the center-right groundswell, yet they continue to do poorly at the polls. I am convinced the reason for that is that while they are main-stream on fiscal matters, they are far left on social matters. Their stance on social issues are not resonating with the mainstream, because they are viewed as being in bed with the liberals of the left. They will tell you it is a conservative view, but it is not perceived that way. Mainstream, center-right folks are generally opposed to legalizing drugs, for instance, viewing that as something left-leaning ne'er-do-wells would want. I (and so many others just like me) tend to agree with the Libertarian party on fiscal issues, while vehemently opposing their views on social issues, and that is not gonna change anytime soon.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:32 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
Müs wrote:
Monte wrote:
the new 41/59 supermajority is certainly a mandate for conservative governance....


You clearly don't get it.


No, he does not. He makes that clear with every derogatory dismissal of the tea partiers as fringe elements without realizing that they are really main stream, center-right folks who are fed up with both parties acting like they're spending money they earned, rather than knowing they're spending money that they have taken from the public.

The party who finally gets it and acts on it rather than acting derogatory, or giving lip service to the anger but ignoring it in the way they govern, is the party that is gonna grasp the initiative and hold it for a good long time. If the Democrats wanna start governing center-right, rather than far left, ......

*edit* You see, this is where even Libertarians fail. Many of the fiscal issues espoused by the Libertarian party would seemingly fit right in with the center-right groundswell, yet they continue to do poorly at the polls. I am convinced the reason for that is that while they are main-stream on fiscal matters, they are far left on social matters. Their stance on social issues are not resonating with the mainstream, because they are viewed as being in bed with the liberals of the left. They will tell you it is a conservative view, but it is not perceived that way. Mainstream, center-right folks are generally opposed to legalizing drugs, for instance, viewing that as something left-leaning ne'er-do-wells would want. I (and so many others just like me) tend to agree with the Libertarian party on fiscal issues, while vehemently opposing their views on social issues, and that is not gonna change anytime soon.


Actually, this is a systemic problem (IE. the Two Party System). By design, the system marginalizes third partys. They collaborate to this end.

Also, Bery, what you need to understand is that what liberalism is, is the will to compel another person and restrict their liberty through use of government force. So when you seek to legislate away individual liberty and God given freedom in the name of social "conservatism", you are actually acting liberally in your methods.

You use the same tool the fiscal liberal uses to bring his agenda to fruition, thereby validating the method. Once the tool is valid, the argument is no longer one about whether government compulsion is morally right or wrong, but instead draws it into the political arena in the form of "preferences" and "degrees".

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


Last edited by Rynar on Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:43 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Also, Bery, what you need to understand is that what liberalism is, is the will to compel another person and restrict their liberty through use of government force. So when you seek to legislate away individual liberty and God given freedom in the name of social "conservatism", you are actually acting liberally in your methods.


My argument is not that the Libertarian position is liberal or conservative. Use whatever word you wish, and call my position umganguaette if you want to. It's not a battle of which label is correct; it is a battle of perception and disagreement. Libertarian positions on social issues, by and large, do not resonate with main-stream Americans. Calling it a conservative position does not help one iota. The position on the issue is what is important, not the label you place over the position.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:47 pm 
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If your argument is that simple democracy is the highest moral imperitive, you've already defeated yourself in your own argument.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:14 am 
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Rynar wrote:
If your argument is that simple democracy is the highest moral imperitive, you've already defeated yourself in your own argument.


Whether I am or not is immaterial. People who have concerns about social issues, and see the position of liberals and Libertarians as a degradation of society, are going to vote on those issues. All the fiscal responsibility in the world will not help a society that is rotting at its core.

Libertarian ideals, it seems to me, are laudable as an ideal principle- if everyone lived as a hermit in a cave somewhere. But we do not, we live in social groups. You can be responsible or irresponsible as a hermit, you only harm or help yourself. If you are irresponsible in a social group, however, it's usually not just you that is affected, it's others around you, too. Be irresponsible with alcohol, for instance, and some mother and child just may be harmed by your irresponsibility. You may argue that there are laws that will punish the drunk driver, but in what way does that help the mother, mourning her child in the cemetary? Laws are there not only to punish irresponsibility, but hopefully to deter the irresponsibility in the first place. IMO, laws concerning drugs such as mj and cocaine and such serve the same societal purpose and therefore are a good thing that I support, and so do many of the main-stream voters whose support you need to get elected. How many people are deterred from drug use because it is illegal? Who knows, but every one who is so deterred is an addition to the plus side of society. The main-stream understands this.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:23 am 
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I posit that the method and the tool are what is important here, as it is the method and the tool of your preference which is now being wielded by those who are causing the "core rot".

Libertarians do not generally advocate the use of the tool, much less the ends to which liberals would apply it. We are simply willing to sit back and allow God to do the judgeing, while we are content to argue for our conservative preferences rather than compell others to God's standard by force.

Any other way legitimizes the weapon of your own unmaking, and in that way makes you saddly participatory in your own plight.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


Last edited by Rynar on Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:41 am 
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Rynar wrote:
I posit that the method and the tool are what is important here, as it is the method and the tool of your preference which is now being wielded by those who are causing the "core rot".

Libertarians do not generally advocate the use of the tool, much less the ends to which liberals would apply it. We are simply willing to sit back and allow God to do the judgeing, while we are content to simply argue for our conservative preferences rather than compell others to God's standard by force.

Any other way legitimizes the weapon of your own unmaking, and in that way makes you saddly participatory in your own plight.


Nice philosophical argument which fails when placed in the real world. God gives us law, and says that He has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing. Those do not just apply to the next life, but to this life as well. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

Again, you have an argument only if you live as a hermit and I come to you and try to force you to live a certain way. But you choose to live in a society, and like it or not, what you do affects others around you. Don't like the society's rules? Go live as a hermit. I don't think any one will stop you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:50 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I posit that the method and the tool are what is important here, as it is the method and the tool of your preference which is now being wielded by those who are causing the "core rot".

Libertarians do not generally advocate the use of the tool, much less the ends to which liberals would apply it. We are simply willing to sit back and allow God to do the judgeing, while we are content to simply argue for our conservative preferences rather than compell others to God's standard by force.

Any other way legitimizes the weapon of your own unmaking, and in that way makes you saddly participatory in your own plight.


Nice philosophical argument which fails when placed in the real world. God gives us law, and says that He has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing. Those do not just apply to the next life, but to this life as well. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

Again, you have an argument only if you live as a hermit and I come to you and try to force you to live a certain way. But you choose to live in a society, and like it or not, what you do affects others around you. Don't like the society's rules? Go live as a hermit. I don't think any one will stop you.


You have no more right to adopt another into your herd without their consent than others have to do the same to you. I work hard, and bought property, and paid for it with my own blood, sweat, and tears. My choosing to live on this property does not afford you the right to coerce me. My peacful interactions with the rest of you, and my lack of willingness to coerce you in and way affecting your liberty will have to be enough.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:57 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I posit that the method and the tool are what is important here, as it is the method and the tool of your preference which is now being wielded by those who are causing the "core rot".

Libertarians do not generally advocate the use of the tool, much less the ends to which liberals would apply it. We are simply willing to sit back and allow God to do the judgeing, while we are content to simply argue for our conservative preferences rather than compell others to God's standard by force.

Any other way legitimizes the weapon of your own unmaking, and in that way makes you saddly participatory in your own plight.


Nice philosophical argument which fails when placed in the real world. God gives us law, and says that He has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing. Those do not just apply to the next life, but to this life as well. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

Again, you have an argument only if you live as a hermit and I come to you and try to force you to live a certain way. But you choose to live in a society, and like it or not, what you do affects others around you. Don't like the society's rules? Go live as a hermit. I don't think any one will stop you.


You have no more right to adopt another into your herd without their consent than others have to do the same to you.


But you aren't being adopted. You are making a choice: Live in society and abide by the rules, or live outside the society with no interaction. Until you can convince enough people in the society that your proposed rules are better. Thus far, Libertarianism has failed to do so. I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon, either.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:00 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
Nice philosophical argument which fails when placed in the real world. God gives us law, and says that He has set before us life and death, blessing and cursing. Those do not just apply to the next life, but to this life as well. God knows us better than we know ourselves.

Again, you have an argument only if you live as a hermit and I come to you and try to force you to live a certain way. But you choose to live in a society, and like it or not, what you do affects others around you. Don't like the society's rules? Go live as a hermit. I don't think any one will stop you.


You have no more right to adopt another into your herd without their consent than others have to do the same to you.


But you aren't being adopted. You are making a choice: Live in society and abide by the rules, or live outside the society with no interaction. Until you can convince enough people in the society that your proposed rules are better. Thus far, Libertarianism has failed to do so. I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon, either.


Ber, men have no authority over other men to create such rules.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:02 am 
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That is not correct. The fact that we need government at all disproves that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:05 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
That is not correct. The fact that we need government at all disproves that.


Conflating the nebulous idea of "government" with a government of illibertarian coercion seems problematic to me. And that is assuming that I accept your premise that we need any government at all.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:11 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
That is not correct. The fact that we need government at all disproves that.


Conflating the nebulous idea of "government" with a government of illibertarian coercion seems problematic to me. And that is assuming that I accept your premise that we need any government at all.


It doesn't matter, Rynar. Say that 12 families get together and build a town. You come to them and say you want to live in the town. They say, "Ok, welcome. Here are the rules of the town." You say, "But you don't have a right to create such rules and tell me how to live." What happens? They tell you to go live elsewhere. Society can and does set rules for the behavior of those who choose to live in that society.


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They have the right not to sell me their property if I refuse to meet their standards. They have the right to enter into contract with me to those ends if I agree. They do not, however, have the authority to deny their neighbor the right to sell me his property nor the authority to deny me the right to purchase it.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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I think the more interesting idea is that Ber is saying that God has given free will to man yet man must usurp that gift from other men in order to deny them the free will to choose God's directions.

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The Massachusetts election was

1) A reaction to the incredible bull rush to get the Health Care package passed, and

2) A rejection of the candidate foisted on the voters by the Democratic party, and the assumption that because she was a Democrat she was entitled to the seat.

and nothing more.

It is not a national referendum, a wave of conservatism. It is Massachusetts voters telling the powers that be that they deserve respect, and they felt they got a lot more of it from Scott than Martha.

If the Elephants think this will carry them back into power in the next round of elections, they are crazy. The voters are mad as hell at the insensitivity and non-responsiveness to the will of the voters shown by their representatives.

That is the message.

Hopefully we will keep throwing the jerks who refuse to listen to their constituents out of office.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:10 am 
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I can dig this Scott Brown guy even though he's iffy on GLBT Rights issues and supports the Massachussetts Health Care Mandate, mostly because he thinks most of these issues are issues states should handle on their own.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:32 am 
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What I think Libertarians miss in this whole "Societal rights vs Individual rights" discussion is the wisdom of an old saying: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". If behaviors of an individual can be guaranteed to never, ever negatively impact the life of another individual within a society, then Libertarians have an argument. But if said behavior can have such a negative impact, then society has an interest in regulating or banning said behavior.

*edit* That said, it is not my intent to convince Libertarians that they are wrong in their position. Rather, it is my intent to show that, in order to win elections, they have to convince people who view society as I do, to view society as they do. Maybe, it will eventually happen, idk. But it's not likely to happen anytime soon, and election results when Libertarians are on the ballot seem to agree with me.

Good and enjoyable debate, Rynar. Well done. :)


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