The Glade 4.0

You mean aside from the fact that what you're describing is illegal? No, it doesn't indicate otherwise; those people shouldn't be here in the first place. It indicates we need to enforce immigration law.



Having the same effect as handouts doesn't make them a handout. Having an education also allows you to avoid the consequences you've cited, and in any case, eliminating welfare, medicare, and other things that actually are handouts doesn't mean eliminating worker protection laws either. All you're doing is creating a false dilemma where "no handouts" means "no laws that protect people resulting in positive effects for them either."

As for minimum wage, most of those making it are kids living on their parents anyhow; very few people live on minimum wage and even if their wages go up temporarily, prices rapidly adjust and jobs are eliminated to compensate.



Except that it is a false dilemma because people did not always, or even usually, die without handouts when there were none. They moved, they created their own work, or something like that. Yes, there is a third option. And no, the fact that this is the U.S. does not mean there should be no one who barely survives. So what if "this is the U.S."; it's the land of opportunity, not the land of outcomes. We have people who "barely survive" as it is in Appalachia.



So what if we still get some people in this position? I'll be perfectly happy to tell it to that guy that was told that by his parents, while I have him in handvuffs. He can get his GED in the joint, and get a decent job when he gets out. If he doesn't, sooner or later he's going to get his *** shot off either robbing someone or fighting with the cops because even if he does get a handout it's not going to be enough for him. This guy is as worthless or worthwhile as he chooses to be. We should put this criminal on the dole so that he doesn't have to live like he's in the Sudan? Why? Where's the plan to get him off the dole and working, or is it merely sufficient that we don't have him living in squalor in the U.S. to assuage your ideas of how things "should" be?

Don't give me that tired horseshit line from "Christmas Carol" either; Scrooge was in your position far more than mine. He argued that he paid taxes and that was enough; he shouldn't give to charity or be generous to others. My position is that we should end government handouts so that people can and will give more to charity, and so that people learn to better themselves rather than depend on the government.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

It indicates there's a demand for unskilled labor positions, but only if they're allowed to pay less than minimum wage. If these jobs were profitable for minimum wage, they'd hire Americans, not take the risk of importing illegals. If we end handouts and keep minimum wage, Americans will not get these jobs as they won't be profitable, and if we end minimum wage, Americans will be forced onto the 100-hour a week jobs to survive.



I'll give you this in regards to worker safety laws, companies wouldn't be allowed to create unsafe working conditions. But your philosophy indicates basically everything else has to go, things like laws that limit working hours are passed for the same reason as minimum wage and have similar effects.



And why is that? It's because welfare pays more than minimum wage, so why should anyone who is independent bother to accept it when they can get more for doing nothing? If we got rid of welfare and minimum wage, all those people would be forced to accept such jobs to survive.



You're dodging the issue. If they "created their own work," well then now they have a job. Moving doesn't address the issue either, they either have to get a job or a handout wherever they go to stay alive. There is no third option here. If there are no handouts, you don't survive if you don't work. There's no way around it.



Honestly, there is no plan. I am of the opinion that we spend too much money on welfare, and the handouts are too big, but there should be a base level of comfort provided to crowd out employers from offering jobs that barely offer survival wages for ridiculously backbreaking labor, and forcing people to take them out of a need for sheer survival. Americans shouldn't be forced to do the third-world 16-hour/day jobs where they do nothing but work and sleep except for their 5 holidays for the entirety of their lives.

No it doesn't. It indictes there are a bunch of people here who will take jobs for less than minimum wage beause they're here illegally and lack legal protection, and the company takes advantage of that. If those people weren't available, the companies would have to pay laborers from this country, and wages would be higher sicne there would be millions fewer workers. Moreover, if there was no minimum wage driving prices up, that wage would be a lot more liveable.



No, my "philosophy" (which I don't have) indicates nothing of the sort. It indicates that people should not get free money for not working. You keep trying to make these things that help people who acually do work be "basically" the same as entitlements for people who do not work. That's the key element. The merits of various regulations protecting workers are not the same issue as benefits for people who do not work.

Obviously they have the same "effect" as handouts; to support people's living expenses. That's the point; to achieve that effect without free handouts that trap people into essentially permenant dependance on government assistance.



Now you're getting the picture.



You're moving the goalposts. Before it was "take a shitty job or starve" now it's "work or starve". Duh. That's the goal. Get people off the handouts and working. (again, if we ignore private charity, which will encourage people to get off it and work because they can only handle so many people)



Except that there shouldn't be any basic level of comfort to prevent that. Again, you're simply eliminating workplace-protection laws for no good reason, and you're pulling these jobs out of thin air. You're also ignoring the fact that employers have to compete with each other for labor.

Quite frankly, if a person has no useful skills, has made no effort to get an education, and otherwise offers nothing but a strong back, why the hell shouldn't he have to work at a hard job for low wages rather than get a handout? We're not doing the same things in America as they are in third-world countries, and in any case, if people want to keep selling large amounts of goods in this country, someone has to be able to buy them. It isn't as if decent jobs are going to just magically disappear because there's no welfare.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Bauer btw, is probably the single most important reason that the SC Legislators didn't remove Sanford, who has been a significant thorn in their side from day one. As much as they would have liked to taken the opportunity to get back at Sanford (the pigs were the greatest thing ever), the alternative is 5x worse, given that has Lt. Governor, Bauer would have taken over.

Increases in labor costs, such as farm workers, will be passed on in the form of higher food costs.

I don't care for illegal immigration, but hiring people at higher wages (because the cheap labor is no longer available) will lead to increased cost to consumers. It can't be helped.

Xeq:

You're making all types of confounding statements, without evidence, that have nothing to do with the original point.

Minimum wage has literally nothing to do with workplace safety.

Willful poverty has literally nothing to do with workplace safety.

Direct comparisons between the industrial revolution and today literally cannot be made. The only comparisons we have are the opinions of authors who were either alive then and are not alive now, or vice versa. Period. No proper statistical, quantitative measures for comparison exist.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine