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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:55 am 
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http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/28/smallbusiness/obama_jobs_plan/index.htm?hpt=T2

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NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- When President Obama called last month for a new tax break to spur job creation, critics blasted him for offering no specifics. On Friday, Obama plans to fill in the details: He wants to give businesses a $5,000 tax credit for each net new employee they hire this year.

Job creation "must be our No. 1 focus in 2010," Obama said Wednesday night in his State of the Union address. "We should start where most new jobs do -- in small businesses."

Obama will travel Friday to Baltimore, where the local unemployment rate is nearly 11%, to unveil his tax-cut road map. The $5,000 per-worker tax credit he's calling for would be available to businesses of any size, and would be retroactive to the start of the year. Startups launched in 2010 would be eligible for half of the tax credit.

Obama is also proposing a reimbursement of the Social Security taxes businesses pay on increases in their payrolls this year. Firms could earn the credit by raising wages or increasing the hours of their current workers, as well as by hiring new employees. The tax credit would be adjusted for inflation, and would not apply to wage increases above the current taxable maximum of $106,800.

The proposal will cost $33 billion, according to estimates released by the White House, which expects 1 million businesses to benefit from it.

While any business would be eligible for the tax breaks, the refund would be capped at a total of $500,000 per firm, a move the White House hopes will steer the biggest benefits to the smallest companies. Firms eager for cash could claim the credits on a quarterly basis, sparing them the wait before they file their annual taxes.

Hiring tax credits have been proposed before, and shot down in part because of their vulnerability to abuse. Senior White House officials say Obama's plan includes a slew of safeguards to prevent companies from gaming the system.

For example, companies would have to show net increases in their staffing and payroll to qualify. Businesses that cut 20 workers and hire five wouldn't be eligible, nor would those that lay off a $50,000 worker and hire two $20,000 staffers.

Main Street's cash crunch: Several in Congress are already on board with the idea of tax credits for hiring. Senators Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., and Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, unveiled their plan, which has some similarities to Obama's, in an op-ed on Wednesday.

But some business owners say the idea puts the cart before the horse.

"I need money before I hire people, not after I hire them," said Jimmie Hughes, the owner of Grand America in Richardson, Texas. Hughes' 15-person company sells supplies for a range of businesses, including funeral homes and police departments.

The company's sales are growing, and Hughes would like to hire more people. But while his receivables ledger is at a record high, his cash flow is suffering. Hit by the recession, his customers are taking longer than ever to pay their bills. Hughes, who started the company at home as a sole proprietor in 2003, has maxed out half a dozen credit cards trying to keep pace with the growth.

"It all comes down to cash -- how much cash do I have to apply to what I owe my vendors?" Hughes said. His staffing decisions will be based on "my cash-flow situation, not a tax credit."

Jeff Moss, the owner of Pancho's Border Grill in Great Neck on Long Island, N.Y., had a similar reaction.

"In my line of work, the restaurant business, jobs are going to be created or deleted as a direct result of customer traffic," Moss said. "It is not like we are a Fortune 500 company, where we are going to be adding hundreds of jobs and those credits are going to be adding up. We are a small business. If we are adding one employee, the effect on the bottom line is going to be negligible."

What Moss really needs is for the economy to pick up so his customers will increase their discretionary spending. Two weeks ago, he shut down his second restaurant in another, less affluent area of Long Island.

"When the economy tanked, traffic dropped," Moss said. "That was 30 people who lost their jobs, and that was a bitter pill to swallow."


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:57 am 
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Still won't create jobs. $5000 isn't enough to offset the cost of training.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:03 pm 
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It'll help. It's also not correct to say he's paying people. He's not taxing them as much. Huge difference.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Any reduction in any tax with a corresponding reduction in spending is good for business.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Many jobs don't require training.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Still won't help ...

Lenas:

All jobs requiring training.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Any reduction in any tax with a corresponding reduction in spending is good for business.


Unless one's business happens to (i) have government contracts, (ii) receive direct government subsidies, (iii) benefit from a higher skilled labor force b/c of government funding of education, (iv) make use of government-funded highways, railroads, and airports, (v) profit from government-granted and protected monopolies on Intellectual Property, (vi) enjoy the shield of government-imposed tariffs on foreign imports, (vii) export products to other countries under government-negotiated and enforced trade regimes, (viii) save money on labor costs b/c of government-funded healthcare, childcare, and retirement benefits, (ix) and so on, (x) and so on.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Business, not a specific business RD.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:40 pm 
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Wow $5k tax credit for hiring someone such a sweet deal. Let's see how the works out I hire a new employee starting wage is $40/hour, so about 84k a year(not factoring in other costs taxes insurance SSi, and all the other crap)
It takes about a month for me to get a new person up to speed on policies, procedures, and practices. then there's company supplied equipment.
Generally just to hire a person I'm investing 10-15k in them. When I hire I look very closely at the full year cost for that person and make sure I can afford it, even if business goes south.
The money for that comes from last years profits,(yeah that income I made over the magical 250K mark they plan to tax me extra for).
Of course if business is good I'll make even more money because of this employee and pay even more taxes.
**** this ****. By my math I can fire 1 person reduce 1 to part time and keep my income to just under that 250K mark and be quite happy with life, no need to try harder.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:12 am 
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The only problem I see is the problem with all tax cuts without an equal decrease decrease in government spending. It's all just tax defferance. Someday somewhere the bill's going to come due and the way we are going is likely sooner or later.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:18 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
The only problem I see is the problem with all tax cuts without an equal decrease decrease in government spending. It's all just tax defferance. Someday somewhere the bill's going to come due and the way we are going is likely sooner or later.


Ding ding ding! This is why the Bush "Tax Cuts" can't really be considered as such.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:57 am 
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Khross wrote:
Lenas:

All jobs requiring training.


Please don't argue semantics. Most of my jobs' training has included "here are the email addresses to your coworkers" and nothing else. Yes, I have training, but none of it was on-the-job.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:01 am 
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Lenas:

Not sure what kind of jobs you're getting then, because research shows it's more expensive to replace an employee than give them a 10% raise in most cases. Employee retention is regarded as good for the bottom line by almost every business model in the world.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:55 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Business, not a specific business RD.


Aye, but what I'm getting at is that "business," writ large, is just an aggregate of individual businesses, and virtually all individual businesses currently benefit, either directly or indirectly, from government spending. A cut in government spending, therefore, will negatively impact a variety of those businesses, and it is thus an overstatement to declare that any cut in taxes and spending will be good for "business." Determining whether or not the net effect of a cut will be positive or negative overall depends on what's getting cut, which businesses will be affected and how they'll be affected, what the other ripple effects will be, what the timeframe is that you're talking about, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:47 pm 
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New employees are always a liability before they become an asset. Not only do they require ramp up time, but they also usually consume time from their peers for 'ramp up' that could be used for actually getting work done.

In my experience, in my position, it's sometimes easier to run a man short than to hire, especially from outside, because it literally takes 6-9 months before someone because completely self sufficient. This isn't even taking compensation into consideration. Just resources.

Also consider the hours consumed with on-boarding someone from a administrative perspective,HR hours, setting up payroll, doing safety training, company policy orientation, etc...

I realize it's not always this difficult, but I can't imagine any job that doesn't require some expenditure of resources, whether it be $$ or hours...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:31 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
New employees are always a liability before they become an asset. Not only do they require ramp up time, but they also usually consume time from their peers for 'ramp up' that could be used for actually getting work done.

In my experience, in my position, it's sometimes easier to run a man short than to hire, especially from outside, because it literally takes 6-9 months before someone because completely self sufficient. This isn't even taking compensation into consideration. Just resources.

Also consider the hours consumed with on-boarding someone from a administrative perspective,HR hours, setting up payroll, doing safety training, company policy orientation, etc...

I realize it's not always this difficult, but I can't imagine any job that doesn't require some expenditure of resources, whether it be $$ or hours...


That may be so, but if you're a man down then something happens, and you don't have someone already in the pipeline, getting the training and exp he/she needs. Not to mention that the rest of the work-force knows there's a man short and that you expect them to do extra work to pick up the slack.....


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:03 pm 
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The proof will be in the pudding. If this effort plus the other job creation efforts are successful, we'll see unemployment go down.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:33 am 
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Sounds Planful.

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Monte wrote:
The proof will be in the pudding. If this effort plus the other job creation efforts are successful, we'll see unemployment go down.


Perhaps. But you should be aware of the metrics used to measure unemployment.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:42 am 
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I'm aware of the metrics. I am also aware that people generally like to take the worst measurement when it suits them, or the best when it suits them, depending on the message they want to get across. A lowering in the unemployment rate is a lowering, regardless.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:25 am 
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Monte wrote:
I'm aware of the metrics.

You keep saying things like this, but you never prove a comprehension.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Monte wrote:
I'm aware of the metrics. I am also aware that people generally like to take the worst measurement when it suits them, or the best when it suits them, depending on the message they want to get across. A lowering in the unemployment rate is a lowering, regardless.


There are no metrics which are better or worse. That's like saying a screwdriver is the worst tool of all time ... it's not when you need to drive screws. And to that end, you must admit that it also possible for anyone to pick the "best" case metric to suit the purpose of the study. That is why studies often employ multiple metrics on which to judge the basis of the results. While the goal of any study is to distill itself down to a single conclusion, that conclusion need not employ only a single technique or metric by which to arrive at the conclusion. A conclusion statement of a study should be somewhat comprehensive without being information dense or cumbersome.

It's not a "lowering regardless" because unemployment has flux, non-concrete definition, and for reason. It's most certainly with regard because it depends on the context of the word "unemployment".

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:50 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
You keep saying things like this, but you never prove a comprehension.

was this comment necessary?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:04 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
was this comment necessary?

There's some requirement for necessity?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Monte wrote:
A lowering in the unemployment rate is a lowering, regardless.


This sentence believes your first sentence.

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