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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:26 am 
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Obama ends moon program, endorses private spaceflight
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The new budget cancels Constellation and replaces it a focus on preparing a more capable approach to space exploration, including:
Research and development to support future heavy-lift rocket systems that will increase the capability of future exploration and lower operations costs.
A technology development and test program that aims to increase the capabilities and reduce the cost of future exploration activities. NASA, working with industry, will build, fly, and test in orbit key technologies such as automated, autonomous rendezvous and docking, closed-loop life support systems, in-orbit propellant transfer, and advanced in-space propulsion so that our future human and robotic exploration missions are both highly capable and affordable.
A series of robotic exploration missions to scout locations and demonstrate technologies to increase the safety and capability of future human missions and provide scientific dividends.


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Between the shuttle's retirement and the emergence of a new manned rocket system, U.S., European, Japanese, and Canadian astronauts will be forced to hitch rides on Russian Soyuz rockets at more than $50 million a ticket.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:29 am 
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Sadness. Perhaps we can try again when the economy gets fully going.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:30 am 
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Commerical spaceflight.. that will get taxed and regulated into oblivion.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:32 am 
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Unfortunate about the moon program, but not surprising given the current economic state of the world.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:33 am 
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Richard Garriott plays in the SCA. He's a fencer, and his property in Austin is pretty **** badass. For those of you who *don't* know who he is, he's the guy that brought you the Ultima series.

In fact, a lot of the characters you meet in Ultima are based on SCA people from around these parts - Iolo, for example, actually makes crossbows in real life.

He did a private space flight recently, because he has a ridiculous amount of cash. You can see the website here.

Private space flight is cool. I like publicly funded space flight, too. And I hope we can get back to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:34 am 
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The shuttles are EOL at the end of this year. With the cancellation of Constellation, we have no planned crew lift vehicle.

Privatizing is good, yes. BUt at the very best, so far, we can get people up to LEO. SpaceShipOne *just* got into space. I doubt it could ferry people to the ISS.

This is a huge mistake.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:35 am 
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The space program changed the world for the better in so many ways. We've received dividends in so many fields, I just hate to see it end.

He'll still have trillion dollar deficits, the money saved by effectively shutting down the space program will be the next big fund rush by every greedy son of a gun out there.

I didn't vote for him (or McCain) last time, I sure won't do it next time. He throws money way like a drunken sailor then throws the anchor overboard.

Sigh.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:38 am 
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John Carmack (owner, founder of id Software and all around genius) owns Armadillo Aerospace, which was founded to compete for the CATS Prize which was intended to encourage private development of civilian accessible space-capable vehicles. The company is completely private and self funded (they only sell merchandise like shirts and use profits from their id Software sales).

Carmack is a **** genius, the guy taught himself aeronautics and aerospace engineering, high level math and revolutionized game engine design.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:41 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Unfortunate about the moon program, but not surprising given the current economic state of the world.


No, not surprising, but it's, quite frankly, a lame excuse. He's talking about 19 billion for NASA, and it said Constellation needed another 3 billion a year over what it was getting.

That's money that's, quite frankly, chump change in terms of our current situation, and worse, it's money for concrete, tangible, useful purposes. Cutting it deprives us of whatever benefits we might get, but it saves practically nothing in comparison to the fiscal issues we face.

NASA is just fun to pick on because it seems to the average person who doesn't know any better that they're just expensive toys that the average person has no use for.. while they talk on their phone, watch their satellite TV and use their car's GPS.

Don't get me wrong, some of the stuff they're going to do instead, such as improving heavy-lift capability is great, but we really need to not be dependant on Russia to get astronauts in orbit. You just can't do everything remotely.

In any case, the problem with private spaceflight is that only VERY rich companies could do it, and they're prime targets for the tax appetite of the current administration. Not only that, but spaceflight is inherently dangerous. The first time there's an accident (and there will be one) we'll start hearing about how dangerous it is, and how they're cutting corners for their bottom line and the usual litany of anti-corporate ideas. We'll hear calls for more regulation and more taxation to fund it, and, like the nuclear power industry, it will face monumental obstacles to success because everyone wants people to do it for the benefit of themself, not for the profit of those who invested in it. Never mind the accidents NASA has had over the years, it will suddenly be turned into even more of a travesty when there's an accident with a private spaceflight.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:44 am 
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Pretty much what DE said.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:47 am 
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Micheal wrote:


I didn't vote for him (or McCain) last time, I sure won't do it next time. He throws money way like a drunken sailor then throws the anchor overboard.

Sigh.


Good lord. That's just not true. The economic stimulus plan, which was nearly the sum total of his direct increase in spending, actually turned the economy around from the brink of disaster. Only the most dogged opponents of the administration will say that he "threw money away" with that effort. It was money well spent. In some cases, it's money that has already paid off. Bailing out the banks sucked. But it had to be done, and so did the Auto bail out.

People like to ignore that the vast majority of our debt increase came as a combination of automatic safety features in the budget kicking in, a massive loss in revenue during the recession, a massive tax cut back in 2000, and two wars we never paid for.

The President has encouraged re-instituting the PAYGO rules, which helped us get to a surplus under Clinton. If folks would just pass health care reform, we'd see huge savings. Spending like a drunken sailor? Hell, my strongest criticism of the President right now is that he's not spending enough to get the economy going. He's too conservative, in my estimation.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:00 am 
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If folks would just pass health care reform, we'd see huge savings.


l.o.l.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:07 am 
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The CBO estimated that the Senate Health Care bill would save 150 billion over the course of the the next decade, and as much as an additional 650 billion over the following ten years.

Health Care reform is a money saver in the long term. It's actually the fiscally conservative response to our health care woes.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Who exactly is saving this 150 billion and 650 billion? If that's money that's going to be saved by the average person at the expense of the government increasing its debt, it's not worth it.

It also really has nothing to do with the space program, other than to illustrate how piddly any savings from cuts there are.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:04 pm 
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Monte wrote:
The CBO estimated that the Senate Health Care bill would save 150 billion over the course of the the next decade, and as much as an additional 650 billion over the following ten years.

The CBO estimate was based upon collecting taxes/fees for the system for the full 10 years while only paying out for 7. Nice accounting trick in the legislation to meet goals Obama put forth. I have yet to see any such estimate for the second decade, but based upon the point of returns and escalating costs, and given the legislation wasn't properly written to address that time frame, I question the validity of your statement. Proof please.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Didn't realize Monte was under a ban for 30 days before responding to his statement. I'll leave it intact in case he decides to respond in the future, or someone else has the information to support that claim.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Why, exactly, do we need to cut this? I mean, I know that many people support it, and part of me does deep down on a fiscally conservative level; however, if we're throwing money away left and right, what the **** is $20b or so?

That's what, like... less than 1/10 of a percent of the budget or something?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Didn't realize Monte was under a ban for 30 days before responding to his statement. I'll leave it intact in case he decides to respond in the future, or someone else has the information to support that claim.


The only "proof" I've seen dealt with the first decade, not the second. This is only logical, as the financial projections to that length of time are effectively guesses. Frankly, projections beyond 5 years are guesses in my book.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:11 pm 
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People don't see the value in the space program. We're so shortsighted that we're ignoring the one area where we absolutely must advance our technology if we're to survive as a species.

Private enterprise won't help in this case. Private enterprise is very good at utilizing and perfecting existing tech to make a profit, but you won't see private colonization efforts to other planets or moons until there's some established business model...some obvious profit to be made. Right now there are only costs.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:12 pm 
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to the OP. The idea of cutting the space program is a dumb idea. By basically forcing us to utilize the advances of another country, we weaken ourselves in the eyes of other countries. Because now we are mooching their technological advances.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:18 pm 
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I am a long lover of NASA and I say NASA should be totally cut away with (unless it is rolled into the NAVY budget and then I am fine with it.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I am a long lover of NASA and I say NASA should be totally cut away with (unless it is rolled into the NAVY budget and then I am fine with it.)


Why the Navy and not one of the other branches? I know there is a reason for it.. I just have no clue what it is.

Why not the Earth Alliance Marine Corps?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I am a long lover of NASA and I say NASA should be totally cut away with (unless it is rolled into the NAVY budget and then I am fine with it.)


Navy doesn't make sense.

Should be Air Force if anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I am a long lover of NASA and I say NASA should be totally cut away with (unless it is rolled into the NAVY budget and then I am fine with it.)


I would actually be fine with rolling NASA under the DOD since that's its Constitutional reason for existing, and really, space exploration militarily would seem more in tune with the Navy than any other service. It's always been seen as more of an Air Force thing, but that's only because space exploration so far has been so close to earth. Space is really far more akin to the ocean than to the sky in the way we've thought of it to this point.

If that doesn't happen, though, it needs to stay around until commercial spaceflight is actually running and not in danger of being taxed and/or regulated out of existance.

The reason Elmo wants it under the Navy is that the Navy has no Constitutional funding restrictions.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
I am a long lover of NASA and I say NASA should be totally cut away with (unless it is rolled into the NAVY budget and then I am fine with it.)


Navy doesn't make sense.

Should be Air Force if anything.



Why not Navy? There is no air in space and spacecraft are named like naval vessels (in both reality and in scifi). Space has more in common with sailing than it does with either boots on the ground or a aircraft. Also the Constitution allows for a continually funded Navy.

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