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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:05 am 
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With the issue of repealing DADT so in the news of late, I found this article interesting.

http://townhall.com/columnists/FrankTur ... dont_think

I hope those of you who disagree with my position will read it as objectively as you can.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:13 am 
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I like that article. Food for thought.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:27 am 
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That article was appalling.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:27 am 
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The problem with any argument about homosexuality and their rights always boils down to whether or not people are inherently gay or if it is a choice. Until there is consensus on that you cannot have a serious discussion.

That said and promptly ignored ;), I would say his argument is coming from the wrong place by trying to distinguish between desires and behaviors. These people are being persecuted because of their desires not their behaviors. Adultery is already prohibited whether heterosexual or homosexual which addresses the behaviors of both groups equally.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:28 am 
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Sodomy is also prohibited, but when was the last time you heard about a Colonel getting stripped of rank and dishonorably discharged for **** his wife in the ***?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:31 am 
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Article wrote:
So even if homosexual behavior is permitted in society, that doesn’t necessarily mean it should be permitted in the military.


This is ridiculous. Why should straight sexual behavior be permitted but not homosexual?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:36 am 
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Khross wrote:
Sodomy is also prohibited, but when was the last time you heard about a Colonel getting stripped of rank and dishonorably discharged for **** his wife in the ***?

I think the point is a colonel **** his wife in the *** is a dishonorable discharge.

/rimshot

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:37 am 
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I agree there is no reason why the military should be forced to compromise itse ability to function just to appeal to anyone's sensibilities. I was blasted for his before by certain posters because the suggestion was made (which was a strawman) that I was implying if gays were allowed to serve in the military, it would turn into an orgy and that this was a archaic and ignorant view of gay people.

However, men and women are not allowed to serve together. This is because of the potential sexual distractions by combining the units. No one suggests if you combined them, there would be gross sexual activity (gross as in great volume, but gross as in icky could also apply, I suppose). However, if you suggest that gay people served together, there could be sexual distraction enough to detract from the functional performance of the unit, you are immediately labeled as a homophobe. Yet for the argument of marriage and other areas of sexual equality, you always hear the case that hetero and homosexual relationships are equal in every way. Apparently they aren't when it doesn't suit your political agenda.

However, for the purposes of general society, which has no specific performance metric it is trying to meet, there is no such great case for keeping gay marriage from occurring. Not one based in sound reasoning at any rate.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:38 am 
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Imperi wrote:
This is ridiculous. Why should straight sexual behavior be permitted but not homosexual?

I didn't read the entire article, so perhaps I missed part, but that I think that part of his argument. Fraternization between the sexes is also forbidden, more so if it is between people of different rank. As to whether his assertion is accurate or not, or actually enforced to the same degree, I couldn't answer, but there are several here that are or were in the military that I'm sure could give more information.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:39 am 
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Khross wrote:
That article was appalling.


Can you expound on that? Maybe I'm naive...I thought it made sense to me: as in, the desire v. behavior part. What is wrong with that?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:48 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Khross wrote:
That article was appalling.
Can you expound on that? Maybe I'm naive...I thought it made sense to me: as in, the desire v. behavior part. What is wrong with that?
Other than it's loaded with bad rhetoric and a specific agenda attempting to minimize the social identity issues that anyone in America with a non-traditional gender identity faces?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:48 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
as in, the desire v. behavior part. What is wrong with that?



Well, for one, the desire alone, if it becomes public, will get you kicked out of the military.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:55 am 
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Talya wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
as in, the desire v. behavior part. What is wrong with that?



Well, for one, the desire alone, if it becomes public, will get you kicked out of the military.


Which is not the point of the policy. It is a consequence of the policy. The point of the policy (and when it comes to the military I consider it a VERY important point) is that "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:57 am 
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This was the relevant part to me:
Quote:
as a former ROTC instructor and legal officer in the United States Navy, I helped deny entrance to potential recruits and prosecuted existing service people for all sorts of behaviors that were incompatible with unit cohesion and military readiness.


What is wrong with keeping behaviors out of the military that potentially would be "incompatible with unit cohesion and military readiness?"

Especially the 'unit cohesion' part. Don't they kick people out of the military for bad attitudes and fighting and stuff? If you have one guy in your unit who is always picking a fight and generally an *** and you can't trust him to get your back and he is distracting everyone, wouldn't that not be safe for combat? Wouldn't they kick him out? If they don't, I could see the argument.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:57 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Talya wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
as in, the desire v. behavior part. What is wrong with that?
Well, for one, the desire alone, if it becomes public, will get you kicked out of the military.
Which is not the point of the policy. It is a consequence of the policy. The point of the policy (and when it comes to the military I consider it a VERY important point) is that "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
Right, because we all know that consenting adults having sex with the people they choose to have sex with needs curing. Honestly, pick a better aphorism.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:00 am 
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Khross wrote:
Right, because we all know that consenting adults having sex with the people they choose to have sex with needs curing. Honestly, pick a better aphorism.


Or better yet, open your eyes and unplug your ears and actually think, instead of feel.

*edit* Let me see if I can help the skeptics. Let's say that in company "A" there are 4 infantrymen, A, B, C, and D. A is openly homosexual. One day after showering, C and D start giving the business to B, "Hey I noticed A was checking you out in the showers. You not out of the closet yet?" and such teasing. A few days later out on patrol the company has to jump for cover, and A jumps in the same cover as B. Back at the barracks, more teasing. "Oh yeah, B is A's b**** now." etc etc.

How is B likely to feel? How does that foster unit cohesion? There are many ways this could end up playing out, and most are negative to the proper functioning of the company.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:25 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
This was the relevant part to me:
Quote:
as a former ROTC instructor and legal officer in the United States Navy, I helped deny entrance to potential recruits and prosecuted existing service people for all sorts of behaviors that were incompatible with unit cohesion and military readiness.


What is wrong with keeping behaviors out of the military that potentially would be "incompatible with unit cohesion and military readiness?"

Especially the 'unit cohesion' part. Don't they kick people out of the military for bad attitudes and fighting and stuff? If you have one guy in your unit who is always picking a fight and generally an *** and you can't trust him to get your back and he is distracting everyone, wouldn't that not be safe for combat? Wouldn't they kick him out? If they don't, I could see the argument.


Because this was disproven millenia ago with the most effective military forces of the ancient world?

"THIS IS SPAAAARTAAA! And we're all bisexual here, thank you."

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:27 am 
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Um....this isn't Sparta?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:29 am 
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Beryllin:

Homosexuality is neither a threat to unit cohesion nor the American society as a whole. You have now, for the better part of a decade, continued your religious crusade against non-traditional gender identities with a fervor that amounts to nothing less than zealotry. It is tiresome, pointless, and generally founded on ill-conceived notions about homosexuality bringing about the end of God's Grace for the United States.

That said, your preference for Turek's article is nothing more than confirmation bias. You have not considered it logically or rationally; rather, it affirms your standing opinion on matters of gender identity and sexual equality; therefore, it must be correct. However, Turek's article is based on faulty logic and flawed assumptions.

First, Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are neither proven as choices nor completely void of physiological causes. They are complex manifestations in a complex system: we need more information before we can say that people are "born homosexual," but the evidence is certainly mounting in that direction. More importantly, both Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are directly modified and influenced by the greater social construct. This causes all sorts of spectacular complexities and conflicts for the individual on a psychic level and society on a normative level. I can say, however, with absolute certainty that your repulsion and anti-homosexual zeal is nothing more than a social construct reinforced by your cultural sphere and choices.

Second, Turek's argument that the UCMJ punishes behaviors over desires is not exactly accurate. The UCMJ creates a system of social normatives that directly influences and shapes the culture of military behavior and values. We can argue the benefits or failures of that culture and its value sets all day long; but, it remains to be proven that open homosexuality will adversely impact our military in any way. If the behaviors are punished and desires prohibited universally, then what is the negative consequence of allowing the open sexuality of homosexuals? The sexuality of heterosexuals is ALREADY known and not subject to public scrutiny. Rules against fraternization and adultery would apply regardless of sexual orientation. In short, the article is little more than a hasty generalization.

If we're to assume that these rules exist to remove sexual distraction from the military, then we can only conclude that privileging heterosexuality over homosexuality is the result of some greater social normative inherited from society as a whole.

More importantly, if you apply Turek's standard evenly, it actually DEMONSTRATES the oppression and discrimination currently occurring in our military. Heterosexuality is assumed, and Heterosexuals are free to admit their gender/sexual identity. All non-normative groups are not. Consequently, current policy actually suppresses a freedom/license given to those who conform to a certain expectation. Being openly gay does not require breaking any fraternization or adultery rules; nor, however, does being openly heterosexual.

So, yes, I read it; I though about it; I laughed at the bad logic and agenda driven misrepresentation of facts; and I dismissed it as another thread in which Beryllin chafes at the notion another man might want to **** him in the ***.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:30 am 
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Talya wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
This was the relevant part to me:
Quote:
as a former ROTC instructor and legal officer in the United States Navy, I helped deny entrance to potential recruits and prosecuted existing service people for all sorts of behaviors that were incompatible with unit cohesion and military readiness.


What is wrong with keeping behaviors out of the military that potentially would be "incompatible with unit cohesion and military readiness?"

Especially the 'unit cohesion' part. Don't they kick people out of the military for bad attitudes and fighting and stuff? If you have one guy in your unit who is always picking a fight and generally an *** and you can't trust him to get your back and he is distracting everyone, wouldn't that not be safe for combat? Wouldn't they kick him out? If they don't, I could see the argument.


Because this was disproven millenia ago with the most effective military forces of the ancient world?

"THIS IS SPAAAARTAAA! And we're all bisexual here, thank you."


So you argue that heteros should be barred from military service?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:33 am 
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Khross wrote:
Beryllin:

Homosexuality is neither a threat to unit cohesion nor the American society as a whole. You have now, for the better part of a decade, continued your religious crusade against non-traditional gender identities with a fervor that amounts to nothing less than zealotry. It is tiresome, pointless, and generally founded on ill-conceived notions about homosexuality bringing about the end of God's Grace for the United States.

That said, your preference for Turek's article is nothing more than confirmation bias. You have not considered it logically or rationally; rather, it affirms your standing opinion on matters of gender identity and sexual equality; therefore, it must be correct. However, Turek's article is based on faulty logic and flawed assumptions.

First, Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are neither proven as choices nor completely void of physiological causes. They are complex manifestations in a complex system: we need more information before we can say that people are "born homosexual," but the evidence is certainly mounting in that direction. More importantly, both Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are directly modified and influenced by the greater social construct. This causes all sorts of spectacular complexities and conflicts for the individual on a psychic level and society on a normative level. I can say, however, with absolute certainty that your repulsion and anti-homosexual zeal is nothing more than a social construct reinforced by your cultural sphere and choices.

Second, Turek's argument that the UCMJ punishes behaviors over desires is not exactly accurate. The UCMJ creates a system of social normatives that directly influences and shapes the culture of military behavior and values. We can argue the benefits or failures of that culture and its value sets all day long; but, it remains to be proven that open homosexuality will adversely impact our military in any way. If the behaviors are punished and desires prohibited universally, then what is the negative consequence of allowing the open sexuality of homosexuals? The sexuality of heterosexuals is ALREADY known and not subject to public scrutiny. Rules against fraternization and adultery would apply regardless of sexual orientation. In short, the article is little more than a hasty generalization.

If we're to assume that these rules exist to remove sexual distraction from the military, then we can only conclude that privileging heterosexuality over homosexuality is the result of some greater social normative inherited from society as a whole.

More importantly, if you apply Turek's standard evenly, it actually DEMONSTRATES the oppression and discrimination currently occurring in our military. Heterosexuality is assumed, and Heterosexuals are free to admit their gender/sexual identity. All non-normative groups are not. Consequently, current policy actually suppresses a freedom/license given to those who conform to a certain expectation. Being openly gay does not require breaking any fraternization or adultery rules; nor, however, does being openly heterosexual.

So, yes, I read it; I though about it; I laughed at the bad logic and agenda driven misrepresentation of facts; and I dismissed it as another thread in which Beryllin chafes at the notion another man might want to **** him in the ***.


Pointless drivel. I've already given an example of how unit cohesion can be negatively affected by having an openly homosexual infantryman in it. *shrug*


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:34 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Um....this isn't Sparta?



No, it's not. But Sparta rather well shows the "military cohesion" argument is just a bullshit excuse.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:35 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Talya wrote:
LadyKate wrote:
as in, the desire v. behavior part. What is wrong with that?



Well, for one, the desire alone, if it becomes public, will get you kicked out of the military.


Which is not the point of the policy. It is a consequence of the policy. The point of the policy (and when it comes to the military I consider it a VERY important point) is that "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".


No, the point of the policy is there are a bunch of homophobic **** who are scared of catching teh gay or morally outraged because of their religious beliefs.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:35 am 
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Quote:
I've already given an example of how unit cohesion can be negatively affected by having an openly homosexual infantryman in it. *shrug*


A fictitious, bullshit example?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:39 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
Pointless drivel. I've already given an example of how unit cohesion can be negatively affected by having an openly homosexual infantryman in it. *shrug*
Or better yet, open your eyes and unplug your ears and actually think, instead of feel.
Take your own advice ...

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