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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:35 pm 
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I guess I missed something. I don't understand the value of prayer as generally described in Judeao-Christian writings.

If God has a plan and everything happens according to God's plan or by God's will, what is the value of a prayer?

Do people pray that their own will be done (in which case God allows your will to take precidence over his Plan)
Do people pray that God's will be done (in which case what is the point? Presumably God's will is done if God wants it done)
Do people pray over the things that God is indifferent about? (In which case God seems detatched)

I carry my own grief with me. My thoughts go out to the person and I hope they are able to find peace. But for me God has no personal involvement in my life. God IS, but does not interecede, but sets things in motion and watches as they unfold. But God to me is neither omnipotent nor omnicient. My requests for intercession are merely a way of focusing my own will and self.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:38 pm 
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If you pray, and you get something from it, it's the devil.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:40 pm 
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This thread was done about a year or two ago. Stat-hole posted a really good article on it that I think was written by C.S. Lewis.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:42 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I guess I missed something. I don't understand the value of prayer as generally described in Judeao-Christian writings.

If God has a plan and everything happens according to God's plan or by God's will, what is the value of a prayer?

Do people pray that their own will be done (in which case God allows your will to take precidence over his Plan)
Do people pray that God's will be done (in which case what is the point? Presumably God's will is done if God wants it done)
Do people pray over the things that God is indifferent about? (In which case God seems detatched)

I carry my own grief with me. My thoughts go out to the person and I hope they are able to find peace. But for me God has no personal involvement in my life. God IS, but does not interecede, but sets things in motion and watches as they unfold. But God to me is neither omnipotent nor omnicient. My requests for intercession are merely a way of focusing my own will and self.


Prayer is God's way of telling us, "Come on into My throneroom, and let's talk. Unload your burdens. Tell Me what is bothering you. Never mind that I already know, tell Me, anyway. If My presence in your life is a positive to you, tell me. Express gratitude. Spend some time listening, and not just talking. Come to My throneroom. It will be a sweet scent to Me, because I love you, and beneficial to you."

Prayer is a mighty gift given to us by God.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:49 pm 
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I have always thought of praying for someone as a way to offer solidarity and support. It is neither more or less effective than "thinking of" someone. However, depending on my relationship with the person I may use prayer as a way to find the understanding, patience and empathy within myself to support them in their time of need. To help uncover or rediscover the unique gifts God has given me to help this person in their time of need if you will.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:55 pm 
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It possible that prayer is more widely accepted as a cathartic act than a petition for direct action (not that direct petitioning doesn't occur).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:57 pm 
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I don't pray for things to be done or not done, mostly.

I pray for help to get through them.

To me, prayer isn't so much about seeing physical results, as guidance, unburdening, and shoring up of resolve, etc. Getting through deaths of friends and family, as well as other stressful times, I certainly feel that the prayer has helped me be stronger.

It's also possible that the belief in that has an effect of its own.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
This thread was done about a year or two ago. Stat-hole posted a really good article on it that I think was written by C.S. Lewis.

Hmmm...did I? It was probably "The Efficacy of Prayer", an essay in "The World's Last Night":

http://books.google.com/books?id=9nFujmxXcR8C&lpg=PA10&ots=NmD0ZPqX_S&pg=PA3#v=onepage

Spoiler:
SOME YEARS AGO I got up one morning intending to have my hair cut in preparation for a visit to London, and the first letter I opened made it clear I need not go to London. So I decided to put the haircut off too. But then there began the most unaccountable little nagging in my mind, almost like a voice saying, “Get it cut all the same. Go and get it cut.” In the end I could stand it no longer. I went. Now my barber at that time was a fellow Christian and a man of many troubles whom my brother and I had sometimes been able to help. The moment I opened his shop door he said, “Oh, I was praying you might come today.” And in fact if I had come a day or so later I should have been of no use to him.

It awed me; it awes me still. But of course one cannot rigorously prove a causal connection between the barber’s prayers and my visit. It might be telepathy. It might be accident.

I have stood by the bedside of a woman whose thighbone was eaten through with cancer and who had thriving colonies of the disease in many other bones, as well. It took three people to move her in bed. The doctors predicted a few months of life; the nurses (who often know better), a few weeks. A good man: laid his hands on her and prayed. A year later the patient was walking (uphill, too, through rough woodland) and the man who took the last X-ray photos was saying, “These bones are as solid as rock. It's miraculous.”

But once again there is no rigorous proof. Medicine, as all true doctors admit, is not an exact science. We need not invoke the supernatural to explain the falsification of its prophecies. You need not, unless you choose, believe in a causal connection between the prayers and the recovery.

The question then arises, “What sort of evidence would prove the efficacy of prayer?” The thing we pray for may happen, but how can you ever know it was not going to happen anyway? Even if the thing were indisputably miraculous it would not follow that the miracle had occurred because of your prayers. The answer surely is that a compulsive empirical Proof such as we have in the sciences can never be attained.

Some things are proved by the unbroken uniformity of our experiences. The law of gravitation is established by the fact that, in our experience, all bodies without exception obey it. Now even if all the things that people prayed for happened, which they do not, this would not prove what Christians mean by the efficacy of prayer. For prayer is request. The essence of request, as distinct from compulsion, is that it may or may not be granted. And if an infinitely wise Being listens to the requests of finite and foolish creatures, of course He will sometimes grant and sometimes refuse them. Invariable “success” in prayer would not prove the Christian doctrine at all. It would prove something much more like magic—a power in certain human beings to control, or compel, the course of nature.

There are, no doubt, passages in the New Testament which may seem at first sight to promise an invariable granting of our prayers. But that cannot be what they really mean. For in the very heart of the story we meet a glaring instance to the contrary. In Gethsemane the holiest of all petitioners prayed three times that a certain cup might pass from Him. It did not. After that the idea that prayer is recommended to us as a sort of infallible gimmick may be dismissed.

Other things are proved not simply by experience but by those artificially contrived experiences which we call experiments. Could this be done about prayer? I will pass over the objection that no Christian could take part in such a project, because he has been forbidden it: “You must not try experiments on God, your Master.” Forbidden or not, is the thing even possible?

I have seen it suggested that a team of people—the more the better—should agree to pray as hard as they knew how, over a period of six weeks, for all the patients in Hospital A and none of those in Hospital B. Then you would tot up the results and see if A had more cures and fewer deaths. And I suppose you would repeat the experiment at various times and places so as to eliminate the influence of irrelevant factors.

The trouble is that I do not see how any real prayer could go on under such conditions. “Words without thoughts never to heaven go,” says the King in Hamlet. Simply to say prayers is not to pray; otherwise a team of properly trained parrots would serve as well as men for our experiment. You cannot pray for the recovery of the sick unless the end you have in view is their recovery. But you can have no motive for desiring the recovery of all the patients in one hospital and none of those in another. You are not doing it in order that suffering should be relieved; you are doing it to find out what happens. The real purpose and the nominal purpose of your prayers are at variance. In other words, whatever your tongue and teeth and knees may do, you are not praying. The experiment demands an impossibility.

Empirical proof and disproof are, then, unobtainable. But this conclusion will seem less depressing if we remember that prayer is request and compare it with other specimens of the same thing.

We make requests of our fellow creatures as well as of God: we ask for the salt, we ask for a raise in pay, we ask a friend to feed the cat while we are on our holidays, we ask a woman to marry us. Sometimes we get what we ask for and sometimes not. But when we do, it is not nearly so easy as one might suppose to prove with scientific certainty a causal connection between the asking and the getting.

Your neighbor may be a humane person who would not have let your cat starve even if you had forgotten to make any arrangement. Your employer is never so likely to grant your request for a raise as when he is aware that you could get better money from a rival firm and is quite possibly intending to secure you a raise in any case. As for the lady who consents to marry you—are you sure she had not decided to do so already? Your proposal, you know, might have been the result, not the cause, of her decision. A certain important conversation might never have taken place unless she had intended that it should.

Thus in some measure the same doubt that hangs about the causal efficacy of our prayers to God hangs also about our prayers to man. Whatever we get we might have been going to get anyway. But only, as I say, in some measure. Our friend, boss, and wife may tell us that they acted because we asked; and we may know them so well as to feel sure, first that they are saying what they believe to be true, and secondly that they understand their own motives well enough to be right. But notice that when this happens our assurance has not been gained by the methods of science. We do not try the control experiment of refusing the raise or breaking off the engagement and then making our request again under fresh conditions. Our assurance is quite different in kind from scientific knowledge. It is born out of our personal relation to the other parties; not from knowing things about them but from knowing them.

Our assurance—if we reach an assurance—that God always hears and some times grants our prayers, and that apparent grantings are not merely fortuitous, can only come in the same sort of way. There can be no question of tabulating successes and failures and trying to decide whether the successes are too numer ous to be accounted for by chance. Those who best know a man best know whether, when he did what they asked, he did it because they asked. I think those who best know God will best know whether He sent me to the barber’s shop because the barber prayed.

For up till now we have been tackling the whole question in the wrong way and on the wrong level. The very question “Does prayer work?” puts us in the wrong frame of mind from the outset. “Work”: as if it were magic, or a ma chine—something that functions automatically. Prayer is either a sheer illusion or a personal contact between embryonic, incomplete persons (ourselves) and the utterly concrete Person. Prayer in the sense of petition, asking for things, is a small part of it; confession and penitence are its threshold, adoration its sanctu ary, the presence and vision and enjoyment of God its bread and wine. In it God shows Himself to us. That He answers prayers is a corollary—not necessarily the most important one—from that revelation. What He does is learned from what He is.

Petitionary prayer is, nonetheless, both allowed and commanded to us: “Give us our daily bread.” And no doubt it raises a theoretical problem. Can we believe that God ever really modifies His action in response to the suggestions of men? For infinite wisdom does not need telling what is best, and infinite goodness needs no urging to do it. But neither does God need any of those things that are done by finite agents, whether living or inanimate. He could, if He chose, repair our bodies miraculously without food; or give us food without the aid of farmers, bakers, and butchers; or knowledge without the aid of learned men; or convert the heathen without missionaries. Instead, He allows soils and weather and animals and the muscles, minds, and wills of men to co-operate in the execution of His will. “God,” said Pascal, “instituted prayer in order to lend to His creatures the dignity of causality.” But not only prayer; whenever we act at all He lends us that dignity. It is not really stranger, nor less strange, that my prayers should affect the course of events than that my other actions should do so. They have not advised or changed God's mind—that is, His over-all purpose. But that purpose will be realized in different ways according to the actions, including the prayers, of His creatures.

For He seems to do nothing of Himself which He can possibly delegate to His creatures. He commands us to do slowly and blunderingly what He could do perfectly and in the twinkling of an eye. He allows us to neglect what He would have us do, or to fail. Perhaps we do not fully realize the problem, so to call it, of enabling finite free wills to co-exist with Omnipotence. It seems to involve at every moment almost a sort of divine abdication. We are not mere recipients or spectators. We are either privileged to share in the game or compelled to collabo rate in the work, “to wield our little tridents.” Is this amazing process simply Creation going on before our eyes? This is how (no light matter) God makes something—indeed, makes gods—out of nothing.

So at least it seems to me. But what I have offered can be, at the very best, only a mental model or symbol. All that we say on such subjects must be merely analogical and parabolic. The reality is doubtless not comprehensible by our faculties. But we can at any rate try to expel bad analogies and bad parables. Prayer is not a machine. It is not magic. It is not advice offered to God. Our act, when we pray, must not, any more than all our other acts, be separated from the continuous act of God Himself, in which alone all finite causes operate.

It would be even worse to think of those who get what they pray for as a sort of court favorites, people who have influence with the throne. The refused prayer of Christ in Gethsemane is answer enough to that. And I dare not leave out the hard saying which I once heard from an experienced Christian: “I have seen many striking answers to prayer and more than one that I thought miraculous. But they usually come at the beginning: before conversion, or soon after it. As the Christian life proceeds, they tend to be rarer. The refusals, too, are not only more frequent; they become more unmistakable, more emphatic.”

Does God then forsake just those who serve Him best? Well, He who served Him best of all said, near His tortured death, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” When God becomes man, that Man, of all others, is least comforted by God, at His greatest need. There is a mystery here which, even if I had the power, I might not have the courage to explore. Meanwhile, little people like you and me, if our prayers are sometimes granted, beyond all hope and probability, had better not draw hasty conclusions to our own advantage. If we were stronger, we might be less tenderly treated. If we were braver, we might be sent, with far less help, to defend far more desperate posts in the great battle.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:06 pm 
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I skimmed it, but that looks like it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Actually, I have a similar question of my own. There's something that I've heard a lot, and that has always puzzled me, but the occasions where I hear it used are always precisely the most inappropriate time to ask about it. So I'll ask it here:

TheRiov wrote:
My thoughts go out to the person and I hope they are able to find peace.


In a nutshell, I'm curious what this means to you, exactly. Ok, maybe not to you -- TheRiov -- personally, as you seem to have some sort of roughly deist theology. But I've heard this sort of thing expressed by the more agnostically inclined, and occasionally even from confirmed atheists. I've never quite been sure what to make of it.

When (general) you say that you'll be thinking about someone or "sending them your thoughts", it is the purpose only to express sympathy for the sake of their psychological well-being, or do you believe that there is also some kind of power in the thought itself? Were it not possible for you to tell them that you were thinking about them, would there still be some benefit to them from your thinking?

I'm equally puzzled when someone who doesn't believe in supernatural intervention asks for the thoughts and/or prayers of others. In cases where the recipient is a member of the board, perhaps this explanation is as simple as an electronic "get well" card. But in quite a few cases, the request will be on the behalf of someone who, in all likelihood, doesn't read this message board and will never see the expressed sympathies (ex. "my cousin has cancer, please think/pray for him"). This seems to imply some other reason beyond letting the sufferer know that others care.

TheRiov wrote:
My requests for intercession are merely a way of focusing my own will and self.


This question is perhaps a bit less to the general audience. When you say this, do you mean it simply in a meditative sense, or do you believe that focusing your will has some kind of external influence on events?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Im on the fence. Somedays I believe that will can influence result. Somedays I dont.

But in any event I have found that a vague sense of "I feel something" can be crystalized by forming and shaping it and refining it with words and coherent thoughts. It lends clarity to my life, and lets me focus on attainable goals.

Example: If I am unhappy with my job, it would help me to focus on something I want to improve. The act of focusing my thought lets me refine the vague dissatisfaction with the status quo into a goal, and from there I can adopt an attitude, and take actions to further the goal.

On the days when I do believe that Will can influence events then having a focused idea is even more important.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:39 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
I don't pray for things to be done or not done, mostly.

I pray for help to get through them.

To me, prayer isn't so much about seeing physical results, as guidance, unburdening, and shoring up of resolve, etc. Getting through deaths of friends and family, as well as other stressful times, I certainly feel that the prayer has helped me be stronger.

It's also possible that the belief in that has an effect of its own.

Essentially this, though on the rare occasions on which I do ask for things (a family member to be healed, safe travels, etc.), I generally pray asking for my desired outcome to occur if it is His will. I'm saying that I want x to occur, but more than that, I want God's will (y) to occur more, though I do have a preference for the outcome of the situation and am asking Him to make an exception to His planned outcome if He so chooses to grant my request.

I believe the big stuff's charted out, but there's nothing that says God can't (or won't) grant requests if He so chooses; in fact, the opposite is true.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:44 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I guess I missed something. I don't understand the value of prayer as generally described in Judeao-Christian writings.

If God has a plan and everything happens according to God's plan or by God's will, what is the value of a prayer?

Do people pray that their own will be done (in which case God allows your will to take precidence over his Plan)
Do people pray that God's will be done (in which case what is the point? Presumably God's will is done if God wants it done)
Do people pray over the things that God is indifferent about? (In which case God seems detatched)


The answer depends a lot on how exactly one believes God's plan works, exactly.

Exactly to what degree God plans out the details of events on Earth is unknown. To put it simply, God has an extensive plan for humanity in general that has passed through different phases throughout history, but that does not mean God has a plan for whether you will chose to have oatmeal or Apple Jacks for breakfast.

Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it.

Praying for His will to be done is really more of an acknowledgement that His will will be done, and there's nothing we can do about it, and we're content that ultimately, it will all work out all right.

God is not really indifferent to anything. If you did want to pray and ask for guidance about oatmeal versus cold cereal, go right ahead. God's answer may very well be "Eat whichever you prefer", but it won't be "I don't care; why are you bugging me with this?"

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:47 pm 
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theres a bit of cognative dissonance here that I can't quite put my finger on.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Did praying to the Greek gods work for the Greeks? Just curious.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it.

In high school (Catholic of course lol) I was kind of freaked out by Jesus' words on the cross. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." This freaks me because it was His will that he die and suffer on the cross, it was inevitable from the moment of creation. This implies the people who crucified him (along with those who went along with it) were following His will, so why would they need His forgiveness for enacting His will/following His plan? Further, if He didn't forgive them would they have gone to Hell or conversely if they had not followed His plan and crucified him would they be damned to Hell?

Obviously I still believe but this dilemma remains unreconciliable to me and the more I ponder it the more nuanced it becomes.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it.

In high school (Catholic of course lol) I was kind of freaked out by Jesus' words on the cross. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." This freaks me because it was His will that he die and suffer on the cross, it was inevitable from the moment of creation. This implies the people who crucified him (along with those who went along with it) were following His will, so why would they need His forgiveness for enacting His will/following His plan? Further, if He didn't forgive them would they have gone to Hell or conversely if they had not followed His plan and crucified him would they be damned to Hell?

Obviously I still believe but this dilemma remains unreconciliable to me and the more I ponder it the more nuanced it becomes.


Since it was part of His plan from the beginning, it was part of the plan to forgive them as well. Jesus had already told us to forgive others that we might be forgiven, so He was simply acting in accordance with what He Himself had commanded.

The reason they need it is because they don't know they're following the plan; they're doing it of their own volition. One could argue that they aren't because God is deciding that they will, but nothing about God's plan to send Jesus implies that he necessarily had planned to send Him at any particular time. Rather, He sent Jesus at the time when He knew His plan would be fulfilled

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All this talk of plans calls to mind...

C. S. Lewis, Perelandra wrote:
In the plan of the Great Dance plans without number interlock, and each movement becomes in its season the breaking into flower of the whole design to which all else had been directed. Thus each is equally at the centre and none are there by being equals, but some by giving place and some by receiving it, the small things by their smallness and the great by their greatness, and all the patterns linked and looped together by the unions of a kneeling with a sceptred love. Blessed be He!

[...]

All that is made seems planless to the darkened mind, because there are more plans than it looked for. In these seas there are islands where the hairs of the turf are so fine and so closely woven together that unless a man looked long at them he would see neither hairs nor weaving at all, but only the same and the flat. So with the Great Dance. Set your eyes on one movement and it will lead you through all patterns and it will seem to you the master movement. But the seeming will be true. Let no mouth open to gainsay it. There seems no plan because it is all plan: there seems no centre because it is all centre. Blessed be He!

Yet this seeming also is the end and final cause for which He spreads out Time so long and Heaven so deep; lest if we never met the dark, and the road that leads nowhither, and the question to which no answer is imaginable, we should have in our minds no likeness of the Abyss of the Father, into which if a creature drop down his thoughts for ever he shall hear no echo return to him. Blessed, blessed, blessed be He!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:23 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The reason they need it is because they don't know they're following the plan; they're doing it of their own volition. One could argue that they aren't because God is deciding that they will, but nothing about God's plan to send Jesus implies that he necessarily had planned to send Him at any particular time. Rather, He sent Jesus at the time when He knew His plan would be fulfilled


But doesn't that raise the question of whether or not sin is part of His plan? Or more troubling that sinning sometimes is His will? In which case is it even sin at all...? ugh. This is why I stopped thinking about this question years ago.

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"Noetic Sciences" would tell you prayer can have some effect, whether or not the divine being you're praying to even exists.

But apart from that, if one views "God" as a father-type figure, then as his children prayer makes perfect sense.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Within God's plan there's considerable room for human action; ultimately nothing we can do will thwart it or advance it before God is ready. Praying is really just talking to God, and when we ask for something, He may or may not grant it.

In high school (Catholic of course lol) I was kind of freaked out by Jesus' words on the cross. "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do." This freaks me because it was His will that he die and suffer on the cross, it was inevitable from the moment of creation. This implies the people who crucified him (along with those who went along with it) were following His will, so why would they need His forgiveness for enacting His will/following His plan? Further, if He didn't forgive them would they have gone to Hell or conversely if they had not followed His plan and crucified him would they be damned to Hell?

Obviously I still believe but this dilemma remains unreconciliable to me and the more I ponder it the more nuanced it becomes.

Also consider that while Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, he prayed three times for the Father to take that "cup" from him, but said that he wanted the Father's will, not His own. So why would Jesus pray this when He knew the Father's will? (I have my own opinions, but figured I'd muddy the waters for you a bit more.)

What I can say is that Jesus commands that we pray and He, as the Son of God, provides an example of always praying. I have seen miraculous things happen as a result of my prayers, so God has demonstrated to me that He listens and acts. God's plan will happen regardless of what I do. I just want to be a part of it and used for it. God is gracious enough to allow that.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Prayers have no positive effect that I have witnessed when she decides to blow.

I have had able bodied men react to save a vessel though.

The only one praying had already been marooned to the back deck.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:31 pm 
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I pray for strength to get through the storm, for whatever mercy that can be granted. I pray that the souls of my deceased friends and family be welcomed into his home, and that he in his wisdom allows no unnecessary suffering to happen.

I also pray to give thanks when good things happen.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:30 am 
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When I pray for someone...

I usually do not pray for other people's recovery, I do not pray for other people's success.

When I offer my prayers for someone, I am praying that they find the courage and strength to get them through the current situation.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:14 am 
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Explain this to me. I'm relatively convinced there is no deity, though I don't rule it out - simply the absence of direct evidence compelling to me. Of course, there could be, and for an omniscient omnipotent omnipresent being there's no way I necessarily should, or even could, understand or interpret what evidence there is correctly. So I'm open to it.

But I still find myself praying occasionally. I give thanks for my life, and my partner. I pray for friends and folks in trouble.

I dont understand it, myself, intellectually. Is it a hail mary pass? A means of feeling like I 'did' something with no real effort expended? Then what about the prayers for gratitude?

I have no theories on this. It just is.

I'll try listening next time, Bery. See if any clarity comes.


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