The Glade 4.0

Which is a fair thing to wonder, as it's the obvious solution.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

nm

Made me think of this...

[youtube]CMNry4PE93Y[/youtube]

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"The map is not the territory."

I think "Christian groups" should leave too. When they can follow the rules, then they can come back. Until then, all they're doing is creating more work and hassle for the people trying to bring order out of this mess.

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As I understand it, the moral duty of true Christian missionarys is to endure percecution at the hands of men, if nessecary, in the service of God. I had no idea that the will of God to move men to help their brothers was now responsive to the wickedness of human politics.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

No kidding. The last thing that country needed was this kind of a trial and media circus to deal with.

I seem to recall something about certain roads being paved with some kind of intention.

I don't like any of your base premises.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I actually agree with most all of what you've said here about crossing borders. However, what changes the rules in this situation is that we're talking about children. /OMG THINK OF TEH CHILDREN!!!!!

Because they are minors, they are much less likely to be able to make good decisions for themselves. So then we have to turn to their parents or legal guardians. If their parents gave them up freely, then from my standpoint, more power to them. However for the authorities to know that was the case, and they weren't kidnapped or similar, there needs to be some kind of paperwork. Similarly if they are orphans, then the Haitian government is the acting parent, and the same rules apply.

On top of it all, there have been other aid organizations (even Christian tho that's not really relevant) that HAVE been able to successfully comply with the various regulations a week or two prior. Presumably the conditions and upheaval were even worse then.

This assumes that children have the same mental faculties for sound decision-making and judgement that adults do (or at least some of them anyway ). There's a great deal of neurological and developmental science that suggests otherwise. It also assumes that the children aren't being coerced, threatened, or intimidated in some fashion by the adults in question. Not that this applies to this specific case, but how is Haitian government supposed to know that without investigating?

Regardless, I don't especially begrudge someone for breaking the law when practically, there's no other choice. But let's just say that I find it hard to believe that there was no other way for this group to help the children than an illegal border-crossing. If there really were extenuating circumstances, that might change my mind, but the only way to find out is to have some kind of investigation, at least, if not a trial.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

The conditions are worse now then they were before, and they get even worse every day. All modes of production were destoryed, food is in short supply, there are gangs of orphans roaming the country.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I'll admit, it isn't the ideal solution. But what is ideal in Haiti at the moment?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

the article I heard last night on NPR suggests that there is very large Voodoo presence in Hati. This morning also suggested that not all the children were orphans, and that some parents had given the children over because they could not feed them.

That parents gave over their children because they couldn't feed them seems like the ultimate act of compassion on both the parts of the parents and the parts of the missionarys.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I'm not expecting ideal solutions. It's just...Hmm... How can I explain my point of view?

There have been a ton of relief workers and organizations on the ground in Haiti for some time now. So far, this one group is the only one who apparently found it "necessary" to take a group of children out of country. This doesn't automatically make them wrong, of course, but it raises reasonable doubt for the necessity of their actions. Unless there was something about their particular circumstances which made them unique out of all other aid organizations in Haiti right now, then it would seem, at first glance, that the law and survival were never truly in conflict. In which case, this was all a Bad Idea(TM) and the Haitian government was entirely correct to stop them.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

nm

nm

As I understand it, other christian groups have managed to bring Haitian children to the US Legally. So the argument that it can't be done legally, and must be done illegally, is somewhat flawed. With the whole world watching I know i'd want to abstain from the appearance of evil and make sure everything was done in the proper fashion. If it were possible to do so, and I think it is.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Yes, but that's because Florida's medical facilities are bearing the cost of caring for the medical evacuees (who will be sent home eventually). I don't think it's analogous to what these missionaries did.

It's been said before, but other Christian groups have managed to work within the law. These folks could have easily channeled their desires to help one of them - supporting orphanages in Haiti that were already in place until their facility was ready. The amount of hubris that they exhibited is astounding. Because of these idiots, real aid workers' jobs were likely made much more difficult.

To say that all Christian groups should pull out because of this one incident is overreacting at its best.

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When he's underwater does he get wet? Or does the water get him instead?

I am unsure why the Voodoo presence would really matter; but I agree with what Rynar said.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

nm

Interesting.

Also somewhat interesting about the Silsby woman.

Crap, what happened to this thread?

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What relevance does this have to this conversation?

Out of courtesy, I'll refrain from giving my opinion on that part.

Midgen:

This, particularly (bottom of the piece) - "Before the Jan. 12 earthquake devastated Haiti, the charity had planned to buy land and build an orphanage, school and church in Magante on the northern coast of the Dominican Republic, BBC News reported. But after the disaster, the mission's aim became to 'rescue Haitian orphans abandoned on the streets, makeshift hospitals or from collapsed orphanages in Port-au-Prince and surrounding areas, and bring them to New Life Children's Refuge in Cabarete, Dominican Republic,' the charity stated in an online document."

That doesn't appear to be accidental, or a misunderstanding. By their own admission they seemed to be going in with the express intent of removing children from the country. So that makes the crux of the issue whether or not they had the right (or authority) to do so, particularly if they were taking away children whose parents were still alive and didn't consent to letting them go. I personally take little issue with the former, a hell of a lot of issue with the latter. No one knows the right of it yet. I'd say Stathol has (per usual) the best take on it, though...

You know how I think the thing played out?

The aid workers went to that village to help children. A few were orphans, others were handed over by parents who loved their kids but could not take care of them, so they did the best thing they could, give them up to people who could. The intent was to take the children to an orphanage across the border, where they'd have shelter, food and water. So they go to whatever official they found who told them they could not take them until the paperwork was completed (and who knows if there were even facilities and working agencies to get the paperwork done quickly). The fact that they were told four hours in advance they could not take them across the border shows that they were trying to work with the officials on the ground there.

So now they are stuck with a busload of 33 children- some hungry, thirsty, some who had parents who gave them up and were crying for them, all quite likely miserable. What to you here suggest they do with them? Try to find a functioning orphanage in Haiti? Dump them in a tent city and hope for the best? Dump them in a field?

Somewhere in the next four hours, seeing no better option, the decision was made to try to get them to food and shelter. So they tried to cross the border. That's how I see the whole thing played out.

It's real easy to sit here in your easy chairs and call them idiots or dig up totally unrelated dirt on the group leader, when you weren't on the ground there and don't want to consider the possibility that the situation was far from ideal for the children or the workers who were trying to help them.

God help me, but too often, people just sometimes disgust me.