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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Dash wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The moderation in Hellfire was bad enough


How do you mean? Too much, too little or what?


Fair question.

First, let me say that how I generally view posting is this: There's nothing that I have posted that I wouldn't say to your face. That doesn't mean I've never gotten out of line, but I get out of line from time to time in RL too. When I do, I take what I deserve like a man and pull the boot out of my *** when I get home. That's, in general, how I feel it should be here.

Rules are fine. Only bullies have a problem with rules when it comes to how others are treated. Moderation is simply enforcing the rules, which again, is fine in theory. Without moderation, people self-moderate, and moderate each other.

The problem with moderation is when people don't know what to expect. For example, people are going around calling each other pathetic and acting like they are better than everyone, and I got a warning from DFK for telling someone, I kid you not, to lighten up. Vigilante moderation, or some such nonsense. So apparently, we aren't allowed to moderate each other.

It is an impossibility that the mods will be able to/take the time to moderate this board consistently and fairly. So why have we developed a system that requires this? All this has produced is a bunch of whiny little self-important crybabies that either try to game the system and cry when they get caught or try to use the system to their advantage.

If this were my board, here is how I would handle it. I would post rules, I would not moderate actively. I would, as part of the rules, warn everyone that if you piss me off, I'll ban you for 3 days. If you piss me off tons, I'll ban you. Now, everyone knows the rules, and knows that enforcement is at my whim. I'm not claiming to be fair, I'm not claiming to be consistent, because I know I cannot be. In general, I think that would keep people under a reasonable amount of control. When (not if) the board spins out of control as it has now, I swoop in, ban half the board for 3 days, and all is well again. At least nobody would be crying about the moderation, because I laid it out beforehand.



that's pretty close to where I am except I dont want to say "Here are the rules!" and then "I'm not enforcing them!" kinda thing. I want to be clear that forum you're obligated to keep yourselves in check I dont want to deal with "He flamed me! Do something!"

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Dash wrote:
that's pretty close to where I am except I dont want to say "Here are the rules!" and then "I'm not enforcing them!" kinda thing. I want to be clear that forum you're obligated to keep yourselves in check I dont want to deal with "He flamed me! Do something!"


You're sending mixed messages, frankly.

You're telling people simultaneously to behave in this forum and not to report people. Meanwhile, you're not setting firm enough rules to know what "behave" means.

For example, there are at least 4 posts in this forum I've found worthy of a report given the "kinder, gentler" atmosphere you're wanting; however, I've not been comfortable reporting them because you've simultaneously been advocating against posters reporting things.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Yeah again, we're still hashing things out so i'm laying low. I urge people to worry about themselves, not others.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:13 am 
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I don't really see the point of two forums for exactly the same thing. So we have 2 current events/political forums:

1) is full of sweetness and light where fairies fly around sprinkling pixie dust and unicorns crap out bakery fresh cinnamon rolls

2) one where most people are just going to post the same way as the old hellfire and 2 or 3 people are going to behave as badly as they can just do see how dreadful they can be before the mods are forced to deal with them...

Old Hellfire would have been fine if the one common denominator from every board we've had since #1 would just be fixed once and for all...


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:26 am 
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I have been reminded (but not in so many words) that it takes two people to have an argument. You cannot control what others will say to you, but you can control how you respond to what they say. Sometimes, the best response is no response. Take the high road and don't sweat it. That can be really hard to do, if you're sure you are being maligned unfairly. But you can't help that, it happens.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:04 am 
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We've heard that a little too much. Sometimes yes, there's just no point in taking the time to respond to nonsense or dignifying it with a response. However, that also just encourages the same bullshit to reappear tomorrow or next week and sooner or later if not addressed it starts to be treated as an axiom. People take silence as inability to address what was said.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:11 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
We've heard that a little too much. Sometimes yes, there's just no point in taking the time to respond to nonsense or dignifying it with a response. However, that also just encourages the same bullshit to reappear tomorrow or next week and sooner or later if not addressed it starts to be treated as an axiom. People take silence as inability to address what was said.


When arguing points, yes.

When responding to flames or lies, not so much. I can sit here and respond to the charge that I'm a homophobic bigot, but how often are minds changed here by my denials? Some people will know that I am not, and some will believe I am, no matter what I say.

Sometimes, just don't rise to the bait. *shrug*


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:29 am 
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DFK! wrote:
You're telling people simultaneously to behave in this forum and not to report people. Meanwhile, you're not setting firm enough rules to know what "behave" means.

For example, there are at least 4 posts in this forum I've found worthy of a report given the "kinder, gentler" atmosphere you're wanting; however, I've not been comfortable reporting them because you've simultaneously been advocating against posters reporting things.


I haven't seen anything report-worthy, though I suppose I'm a lousy judge of that since I've never reported anything and can't imagine I ever will. However, I do agree that there have been a couple of posts already that I think miss the spirit of Heckfire (at least as I perceive it). I don't really understand why the concept seems so strange and ill-defined.

Basically, just pretend we're all friendly acquaintances having a face-to-face conversation, and try to keep it relaxed and casual. Instead of deriding other people or their views; just say you disagree and explain why. Instead of demanding people prove their assertions; just ask what they base their position on, and offer alternative sources if you think theirs are wrong. Instead of calling out logical fallacies; just explain why you think a conclusion doesn't seem persuasive. Instead of using short, punchy critiques; just take a minute to type out a respectful response. And most of all, think of it as a discussion in which everyone is trying to explore the issues rather than a debate with sides and winners/losers.

This is actually one of the main reasons I stayed away from the Glade for so long after it came back from the last crash. I felt like every conversation I was having here was an aggressive debate in which I had to be prepared to link supporting studies and defend against logical fallacy accusations (sorry, pet peeve of mine!) in order to express an opinion. And I was guilty of it too - instead of enjoying the opportunity to exchange ideas with some of the very intelligent and knowledgeable people here, I was looking to score points against people whose views I disagreed with. It wasn't exactly a toxic mess - we were always civil - but it wasn't really much fun or particularly enlightening either. That's why I think having Heckfire as a separate forum where we can deliberately try to avoid that dynamic and just, you know, talk with each other about things, is a great idea.

*Edited for clarity and to add final paragraph.


Last edited by RangerDave on Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:54 am, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:30 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
I can sit here and respond to the charge that I'm a homophobic bigot, but how often are minds changed here by my denials? Some people will know that I am not, and some will believe I am, no matter what I say.
Can we take this to another thread, because I honestly don't think you understand the issue at hand, Beryllin.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:38 am 
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Khross wrote:
Can we take this to another thread,


There's not really a need to do so.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:26 am 
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Seems that starting a thread in heckfire could be considered naive and starting one in hellfire considered trolling.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:16 pm 
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My thoughts on Heckfire? Not that anyone would be interested, but...

This place has officially jumped the shark. The world of ideas is not a kind and gental place. People don't always get along, and more often than not they tend to dislike each other. The National Socialist party existed, expressed and enacted its ideas. Pol Pot killed millions in the name of an idea. For **** sake, uglier discussions than the ones we have here occur weekly in the halls of congress right here in America, and in the UK.

Yet, somehow, a group of "Holy Crusaders" seems to believe that a group of anoymous internet goons should somehow hold themselves to some evasive, near undefinable ideal and embrace a degree of censorship other than self censorship.

You people offend me. And for the record, this is the first time I can actually ever remember being offended by Hellfire.

Ya know why? I live in the real world. I don't spend my time wringing my hands over what some nitwit says (Myself included). I simply move on to the next post, or if completely disgusted I go away for awhile.

I believe that alot of people here have an overwhelming sense of self importance, and in your never ending drive to place yourselves in the center of storms, and have your opinions matter, you flock to crap like this.

Well I won't do it.

I will now take my own advice, and leave you to your pettiness and your censorship.

Peace.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:21 pm 
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That was dramatic. I guess you also believe it's ok to impose your will on others and violate their rights then. Just as we can have a public library that "censors" swearing and loud music, so too can we have a message forum.

Of course Hellfire is now less restrictive than ever, which is why I laugh, thus: ha HA!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:09 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Diatribe


lol.

What is so hard to understand? Hellfire exists as a no-holds-barred discussion forum. Heckfire is a don't-be-an-asshole forum. You've got more choices and freedom than ever.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:08 pm 
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I appreciate the concept and passion of what he said, but methinks Rynar might've let his focus sway, and mixed targets, as it were, since he originally says -

Quote:
My thoughts on Heckfire?


then in the middle -

Quote:
this is the first time I can actually ever remember being offended by Hellfire


And no, there was no segue contained in the two connecting paragraphs. Actually, that sounded a bit like one of my awful drunken posts - good idea, but not articulated in a cohesive way, probably due to being overwhelmed by emotion.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:03 pm 
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Well I dont know, I thought Rynar would have been one to like the idea of unmoderated Hellfire. So color me confused but to each their own.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:11 pm 
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Well now in reading other threads maybe I am misunderstanding him. I'll just shut up now until I know more =p

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