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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:43 pm 
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He's leaving ABC and going to FOX. I like most of the stuff I see from him especially about free market vrs state run. Looking forward to this.

http://townhall.com/columnists/JohnStos ... ments=true

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It's time for a change. Next month, I leave ABC News to start a weekly one-hour prime time show with Fox News.

When I announced that on my blog, plenty of viewers said they were happy to have me leave.

"Goodbye. You suck. You have found a much better home for your garbage reporting and backwards politics."

"Congratulations on the move to the network intellectually suited to your quasi-libertarian corporate-apologist hackery!"

Oh well, you can't please everyone. I don't expect that my libertarian beliefs will please everyone at Fox, either.

Years ago, ABC hired me to do consumer reporting. When I wised up, deciding consumer "advocates" usually did more harm than good, that horrified some of my colleagues.

When I did my first TV special, I pointed out that regulation itself, by stifling innovation, can make life less safe. Two producers angrily objected, saying, "No respectable journalist would say that." The senior producer on the program smugly told me, "You just can't say that on network TV."

ABC's (now NBC's) research director, said: "Why do a show on risk assessment? You should do something on diet or breast implants -- something we know people will watch."

But give ABC credit. After bitter arguments, it ran the show, titled, "Are We Scaring You to Death?" A news division's vice president said, "I don't agree with you, but it's a valid intellectual argument that deserves to be made."

We were all surprised when 17 million Americans watched. We got 3,000 letters, many from scientists who wrote: "Thank God, somebody's finally saying these things. I can't believe I saw that on network television."

So I kept doing those kinds of reports.

My bosses often disagreed with my point of view, but they usually let me air it.

But it was frustrating. My vision and that of my producers were often not in harmony. Too many stories I thought were important -- such as the land theft called eminent domain, or the FDA's endangering people's lives by withholding life-saving drugs -- were not aired.

When I pushed, ABC producers often stared at me as if they were thinking, "Why would you want to do that?"

So after 28 years, it's time to move on.

In my new job, I want to dig into the meaning of the words "liberty" and "limited government." For many years, through Republican and Democratic administrations, we have been losing something vital in America: the commitment to individual liberty and the understanding that as government grows, liberty shrinks.

Fox offers me more airtime and a new challenge. I'm still thinking about what I will do with my own show. Economic analyses of the latest screwball ideas in Washington -- certainly. I also want to undertake exercises in understanding libertarianism, the philosophy of freedom, which used to be called "liberalism."

What do you think? You can help me shape the new program. I ask you for your ideas. Which interesting speakers should I book? What thought experiments should I try with a studio audience? Please let me know.

Maybe I can even learn something from the hostile comments: "You are intelectually (sic) dishonest and a hack. I'm glad I won't stumble upon your sloppy one sided reporting ever again."

"Your right-wing rhetoric was hard to disguise. You were found out when Obama was elected President."

It's interesting to explore the premises here. I have been one of the few reporters on mainstream network TV who did not hide his political beliefs. Viewers know I am for individual liberty and the free market, and against government coercion. I thought that this candor might earn me some credit from those who disagree with me. After all, by putting my views out there, everyone can judge my reports accordingly.

But -- surprise! -- it did not win me much credit with those who disagreed. Instead, many act as if I am the only reporter who has an ideology.

Of course, that's absurd. Every reporter has political beliefs. The difference is that I am upfront about mine.

To be continued.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:07 pm 
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Too bad for ABC.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm 
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While I did not see eye to eye with him, I did enjoy most of his work.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:28 am 
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I imagine Fox will sidle up to him on the issues where free market economics traditionally intersect with what the Republican Party wants.

Most decidedly, I predict an outcry of sympathy when he deride's Bush W.'s poor fiscal policy and monetary disaster in 2001 after the .com bubble burst from Fox where they will lie and act like they were in opposition to Bush at the time.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:24 am 
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FoxNews just got someone worth watching!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:16 am 
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ABC just got rid of someone not worth watching!

John Stossle is perfect for fox news. He loves to present sensationalist, misleading reports that muddy the waters of rational discourse and debate.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:26 am 
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Monte wrote:
ABC just got rid of someone not worth watching!

John Stossle is perfect for fox news. He loves to present sensationalist, misleading reports that muddy the waters of rational discourse and debate.



Actually, he seems to be very logical and rational. He makes the other side look pretty silly a good bit of the time. I expect FOX viewership to increase a great deal.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:30 am 
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He might seem that way, but he has a nasty habit of being very misleading and intellectually dishonest in his reporting. An excellent example is when he brought on a group of "average scientists" to promote already debunked criticisms of Global Warming (or whatever you wish to call it). He conveniently forgot to disclose their associations and specialties. On investigation, several of them were shown to be members of global warming denier groups like CATO, or to not have any credentials what so ever as climatologists.

You can debate if that matters, but a key component of good journalism is disclosure of those facts, and Stossel hid them. I'm certain that's not the only time he's pulled that kind of shennanigan.

My big objection to him is that he begins a story from the conclusion he had when he set out - in the case of my example, that Global Warming is somehow a myth, or that there is still major debate in the scientific world as to it's veracity. Then, he crafts a piece of fluff journalism that simply makes his point for him, convieniently leaving out the context and other details that don't help his case.

Like I said, he's perfect for Fox News.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:30 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Actually, he seems to be very logical and rational. He makes the other side look pretty silly a good bit of the time. I expect FOX viewership to increase a great deal.


This.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:32 am 
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See my post above. Anyone can *seem* rational by being completely misleading. Taly, being hired by Fox News should not serve as an endorsement for this guys journalistic quality.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:33 am 
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Monte wrote:
He conveniently forgot to disclose their associations and specialties. On investigation, several of them were shown to be members of global warming denier groups like CATO



Mentioning that would be an ad hominem fallacy, and considering it a credibility factor would be circular reasoning. They are members of "global warming denier groups" because they rationally and logically disagree with global warming, not the other way around.

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or to not have any credentials what so ever as climatologists.


Like, say, Al Gore? Or David Suzuki? Or any one of most of the 'experts' people quote when talking about global warming? Yes, tu quoque, one side doing it doesn't excuse the other side. Nobody's perfect.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:36 am 
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Talya wrote:
Monte wrote:
He conveniently forgot to disclose their associations and specialties. On investigation, several of them were shown to be members of global warming denier groups like CATO



Mentioning that would be an ad hominem fallacy, and considering it a credibility factor would be circular reasoning. They are members of "global warming denier groups" because they rationally and logically disagree with global warming, not the other way around.

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or to not have any credentials what so ever as climatologists.


Like, say, Al Gore? Or David Suzuki? Or any one of most of the 'experts' people quote when talking about global warming? Yes, tu quoque, one side doing it doesn't excuse the other side. Nobody's perfect.



Hey Monty, what Taly said.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:42 am 
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Talya wrote:

Mentioning that would be an ad hominem fallacy, and considering it a credibility factor would be circular reasoning. They are members of "global warming denier groups" because they rationally and logically disagree with global warming, not the other way around.


No, that would be good journalism. When you are looking for facts about a subject at hand, disclosing associations of the experts you interview is part of the process. If you don't disclose that information, the people who watch your report do not have all the information they need to make a judgment about the person you are interviewing.

For example, if you bring a scientist on to a show, and fail to disclose that he is the grand wizard of the KKK, and he states as fact that black people are less intelligent than white people, you have not given your viewing audience all the information they need to make a judgment about what this person is saying. If you promote the opinion he gives without any serious skepticism, you are failing on two fronts as a journalist.

In the case of the global warming report, not only did John Stossel fail to be skeptical about already debunked theories presented by these characters, he failed to disclose their associations and agendas. He started his report with his conclusion, and then filled in the report with those that supported it. It should come as no surprise that those people were people with an ideological agenda that ran counter to the vast majority of scientists and scientific organizations that do actual research into the subject. None of his guests had ever been involved in first hand research into the subject.

He also billed them as average scientists. That was just not the case.

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Like, say, Al Gore? Or David Suzuki? Or any one of most of the 'experts' people quote when talking about global warming? Yes, tu quoque, one side doing it doesn't excuse the other side. Nobody's perfect.


Al Gore does not claim to be a scientist (I dont know who David Suzuki is). He is a spokesman and an advocate. A very knowledgable one, but he bases his advocacy on science, and not on a predetermined conclusion, like John Stossel did.

If you are going to hold up Stossel as some kind of great thinker or excellent journalist, than you should do so based on good journalism. On that test, he fails. It might "feel" logical, or "seem" good, but that's your emotions talking, and that has nothing to do with the accuracy of his reporting or it's journalistic integrity.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:50 am 
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Monte wrote:
Talya wrote:

Mentioning that would be an ad hominem fallacy, and considering it a credibility factor would be circular reasoning. They are members of "global warming denier groups" because they rationally and logically disagree with global warming, not the other way around.


No, that would be good journalism. When you are looking for facts about a subject at hand, disclosing associations of the experts you interview is part of the process. If you don't disclose that information, the people who watch your report do not have all the information they need to make a judgment about the person you are interviewing.


Duh. they don't believe in global warming. Showing them as a member of a reputable group like CATO is not relevant, it's like disclosing that the mechanic you are interviewing has a subscription to a motorcycle magazine.

Ignoring scientists for what you suggest is like ignoring scientists for being members of the IPCC (which is sorely tempting, but not logical.)


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He also billed them as average scientists. That was just not the case.


None of what you are saying here is actually accurate, unless you want to define average as "not being a global warming skeptic" (which would need sourcing anyway.) In which case, you're making an intellectually dishonest circular argument anyway, dismissing someone's logical argument simply because it's not the argument you want them to make.

Good job you're not a journalist, I suppose.

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Al Gore does not claim to be a scientist (I dont know who David Suzuki is). He is a spokesman and an advocate. A very knowledgable one, but he bases his advocacy on science, and not on a predetermined conclusion, like John Stossel did.


1. Al Gore is cited by people everywhere when this subject comes up.
2. Al Gore did the same thing in "an inconvenient truth" when it comes to who he quoted.
3. You're wrong about how the research is done. GW Skeptic research is all based on scientific process. (Hell, science is driven by skepticism. Anyone without it has no claim to being a scientist. That's what the scientific method is about, testing ad nauseum trying to break a theory or idea, disproving things.) No scientific process has ever shown HIGW to be fact. It's the alarmists that are using predetermined conclusions.
4. http://www.davidsuzuki.org/ (an alarmist, but a worldwide respected one with no climatology credentials whatsoever. Dr. Suzuki is a geneticist.)

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If you are going to hold up Stossel as some kind of great thinker or excellent journalist, than you should do so based on good journalism. On that test, he fails. It might "feel" logical, or "seem" good, but that's your emotions talking, and that has nothing to do with the accuracy of his reporting or it's journalistic integrity.



You're confusing things. His work is logical. It's all the alarmist drivel spouted by others that's based on "feeling."

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:09 am 
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Talya wrote:
Duh. they don't believe in global warming.


Global Warming is not like Christianity. It's not something you believe in or not. The world is not flat. You don't chose to believe if the world is flat or not. It isn't. We know it's not flat. The same thing is true with Global Warming. We know that it is happening, and we know that we are responsible.

The vast majority of scientists, and every major scientific organization agrees that the temperature is rising at unprecedented rates, and that we are the cause. This was true when he made his misleading report, and it's true today. In fact, we are coming to find out that our initial projections were not dire enough.

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Showing them as a member of a reputable group like CATO is not relevant, it's like disclosing that the mechanic you are interviewing has a subscription to a motorcycle magazine.


Uh, no.

CATO, as an organization, is funded by the very industries that have a vested interest in stopping environmental regulation. They are paid to do just that. They are not an independent organization, they are a corporate funded organization, and their work has an agenda.

You ignored my comparison of the Grand Wizard because it is a much closer analogy. The guys he brought on his show had never done any first hand research into Global Warming. He did not disclose that. Yet he treated them as experts on the subject. They were associated with groups that have a clear anti-regulation agenda. He did not disclose that, and treated them as if they were independent scientists just trying to get their voices out over the..what? The chorus of every other major scientific organization on the planet?

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Ignoring scientists for what you suggest is like ignoring scientists for being members of the IPCC (which is sorely tempting, but not logical.)


I'm sorry, it's not. Those scientists are directly involved in the study of the subject. They are not part of a corporate funded think tank that's stated goals involve less regulation of the private sector.


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None of what you are saying here is actually accurate, unless you want to define average as "not being a global warming skeptic" (which would need sourcing anyway.)



You are either intentionally ignoring my meaning, or missing it. He intentionally ignored who these scientists were, what their specialties were, and if they had ever done any first hand research into the subject. He present them as average joe scientists with "grave concerns" over the science behind Global Warming.

He was intellectually dishonest, and it was sensationalist journalism at it's best. He may as well have had them on discussing the real existence of Bat Boy.

His arguments begin with his conclusion. Then he fixes the "facts" around them. His work is not logical, and it's certainly not journalism. He bases his arguments on feelings and impressions, and then he takes all the bits and pieces that help him make his case while ignoring those that utterly refute it.

He's a hack.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:14 am 
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Monte wrote:
Global Warming is not like Christianity. It's not something you believe in or not. The world is not flat. You don't chose to believe if the world is flat or not. It isn't. We know it's not flat. The same thing is true with Global Warming. We know that it is happening, and we know that we are responsible.


The fact that you believe this tripe is proof that you are not rational on the subject, having either no understanding of science or the scientific process at all, or perhaps willfully ignoring it, and that further discussion with you on the subject is pointless, as you refuse to consider any questioning of it at all as being credible. Once again, circular logic. You ignore evidence against global warming because global warming is "real," therefore the evidence must be wrong.

In the real world, Global Warming is not proven, and seriously flawed as a "scientific" theory.

Stossel got it right, and unlike "An Inconvenient Truth," (which presents the idea as incontrovertible,) "The Global Warming Myth?" (which presents the idea as unproven and in need of a lot more empirical evidence before we spend trillions on it), is real journalism.

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Actually, we should make a distinction. The Earth has experienced multiple ice ages. That alone makes global warming a fact. It also makes global cooling a fact. Now, these ice ages occurred before humans were capable of having a significant impact on the mean temperature of the Earth. This means that global warming occurring without human intervention is a fact. It also means that there is reasonable suspicion for any claim that humans are causing global warming.

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Corolinth wrote:
Actually, we should make a distinction. The Earth has experienced multiple ice ages. That alone makes global warming a fact. It also makes global cooling a fact. Now, these ice ages occurred before humans were capable of having a significant impact on the mean temperature of the Earth. This means that global warming occurring without human intervention is a fact. It also means that there is reasonable suspicion for any claim that humans are causing global warming.



I believe it's fairly obvious we're discussing "Human Induced Global Warming" here, as opposed to the natural cycles of warming and cooling that HIGW-proponents often claim do not exist.

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Talya wrote:

The fact that you believe this tripe is proof that you are not rational on the subject, having either no understanding of science or the scientific process at all, or perhaps willfully ignoring it, and that further discussion with you on the subject is pointless, as you refuse to consider any questioning of it at all as being credible. Once again, circular logic. You ignore evidence against global warming because global warming is "real," therefore the evidence must be wrong.


Ahem.

You have 10000 scientists. 9,998 of them say "the Science clearly shows *blah*. Two of them say "we don't think that's true, and here is why". The 9,998 scientists look into their claims, and show how they are factually incorrect. The two scientists continue to hold on to their opinions, despite them being disproven.

You are saying it's irrational to look at that situation and say "the 9,998" are correct.

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In the real world, Global Warming is not proven, and seriously flawed as a "scientific" theory.


In the real world, it *is* proven.

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Stossel got it right, and unlike "An Inconvenient Truth," (which presents the idea as incontrovertible,) "The Global Warming Myth?" (which presents the idea as unproven and in need of a lot more empirical evidence before we spend trillions on it), is real journalism.


No, Stossel didn't get it right.

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Monte wrote:
Talya wrote:

The fact that you believe this tripe is proof that you are not rational on the subject, having either no understanding of science or the scientific process at all, or perhaps willfully ignoring it, and that further discussion with you on the subject is pointless, as you refuse to consider any questioning of it at all as being credible. Once again, circular logic. You ignore evidence against global warming because global warming is "real," therefore the evidence must be wrong.


Ahem.

You have 10000 scientists. 9,998 of them say "the Science clearly shows *blah*. Two of them say "we don't think that's true, and here is why". The 9,998 scientists look into their claims, and show how they are factually incorrect. The two scientists continue to hold on to their opinions, despite them being disproven.

You are saying it's irrational to look at that situation and say "the 9,998" are correct.


If it were anything at all like that, you still wouldn't have a point. Fortunately, it's not even a majority of scientists, let alone an overwhelming one. The vast majority of scientists, even those who believe HIGW is happening, are professional enough NOT to pretend there is anything approaching conclusive evidence on the matter.

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In the real world, Global Warming is not proven, and seriously flawed as a "scientific" theory.


No, it's not. Even the scientists in the IPCC don't agree with you.

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Corolinth wrote:
Actually, we should make a distinction. The Earth has experienced multiple ice ages. That alone makes global warming a fact. It also makes global cooling a fact. Now, these ice ages occurred before humans were capable of having a significant impact on the mean temperature of the Earth. This means that global warming occurring without human intervention is a fact. It also means that there is reasonable suspicion for any claim that humans are causing global warming.


But that ignores a key point. The warming we are experiencing today is completely out of the norm for warming trends in the past. And as we have grown more and more industrialized, and have produced more and more greenhouse gasses, it has got worse. That often gets lost in the political discourse on the subject, but not the scientific discourse.

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Monte wrote:
But that ignores a key point. The warming we are experiencing today is completely out of the norm for warming trends in the past.



Actually, they don't know that.

The IPCC's latest report makes frequent use of such words as "likely" in discussing causes and trends. They believe HIGW, but they do not treat it as "fact."

For instance:

IPCC Report wrote:
Human influences have:
 very likely contributed to sea level rise during the latter
half of the 20th century
 likely contributed to changes in wind patterns, affecting
extra-tropical storm tracks and temperature patterns
 likely increased temperatures of extreme hot nights, cold
nights and cold days
 more likely than not increased risk of heat waves, area
affected by drought since the 1970s and frequency of heavy
precipitation events.


These are not the wordings of a scientist stating the earth is spherical.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:57 am 
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Monty, i accidentally edited your post instead of quoting it. I'm deleting my words here, unfortunately I no longer have yours. Feel free to repost it. (Ooops!). ~ Talya

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:21 pm 
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I'm confused.

Edit: ROFL.


Last edited by Aegnor on Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:21 pm 
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My noob mistake. The edit and quote buttons are side-by-side.

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