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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Bery..

If you know something, or think you do, and have any actual level of concern that it could be used to harm these people...

SHUT THE **** UP.

Seriously. Let it go until there's more of a resolution.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:54 pm 
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That isn't alternative at all. That's what I suggested.

As for your pathetic attempt to try to drum up pity for Christians for supposed persecution, don't bother.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
Or, alternately, a Haitian official was trying to line his own pocket and when it was refused..... *edit* mis-spoke, so I have to edit.....

But of course, that couldn't possibly be what happened, since we all know that Christians are the epitome of evil and gov't officials would never demand or accept bribes, even in countries as poor and impoverished as Haiti......


The only way this rationale makes sense is if the border officials were in a conspiracy with the judicial and the foreign lawyer and the Haitian lawyer in question. Doesn't that seem a bit far-fetched? I could see the judges and Haitian lawyer being willing to dismiss the charges for a fee after it fell in their lap, but since no other group retrieving orphans has been detained (caveat: THAT I HAVE SEEN) I am just not buying the huge anti-Christian conspiracy thing.

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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Bery..

If you know something, or think you do, and have any actual level of concern that it could be used to harm these people...

SHUT THE **** UP.

Seriously. Let it go until there's more of a resolution.


Sound advice.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:05 pm 
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There's been about 7 or 8 reports for flaming in this thread. Noted and agree it was flaming.

I suggest you ignore the individual: Click the Profile button for the user, on the left you should see "Add friend | Add Foe" click Add Foe. Let me know if that doesnt work.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Dash wrote:
There's been about 7 or 8 reports for flaming in this thread. Noted and agree it was flaming.

I suggest you ignore the individual: Click the Profile button for the user, on the left you should see "Add friend | Add Foe" click Add Foe. Let me know if that doesnt work.


Hellfire(tm), now with flames!


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Dash wrote:
There's been about 7 or 8 reports for flaming in this thread. Noted and agree it was flaming.

I suggest you ignore the individual: Click the Profile button for the user, on the left you should see "Add friend | Add Foe" click Add Foe. Let me know if that doesnt work.


Actually, it is probably me that is being reported so I'll let y'all in on a little secret: This is the only topic I am interested in posting about here. So (if so), put me on the foes list, or don't waste your time; it's all the same to me. Some here feel flamed. I feel disgusted. It all works out.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:45 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Dash wrote:
There's been about 7 or 8 reports for flaming in this thread. Noted and agree it was flaming.

I suggest you ignore the individual: Click the Profile button for the user, on the left you should see "Add friend | Add Foe" click Add Foe. Let me know if that doesnt work.


Hellfire(tm), now with flames!


Dat funny. Dat is.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Lonedar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Hellfire(tm), now with flames!


Dat funny. Dat is.


Who Dat !?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:58 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
I feel disgusted.



Yeah, I can see that. I mean, when your criminal child-kidnapping friends are in trouble, and nobody understands that as ambassadors of God's Kingdom they actually have diplomatic immunity--well that's enough to drive someone off the deep end.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:32 am 
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Talya wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
I feel disgusted.



Yeah, I can see that. I mean, when your criminal child-kidnapping friends are in trouble, and nobody understands that as ambassadors of God's Kingdom they actually have diplomatic immunity--well that's enough to drive someone off the deep end.


Heh...you know sometimes I don't mind as much that I can no longer access the Glade at work.


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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:14 am 
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In other news, I now live about 3-4 miles from that power plant that blew up the other day. We heard it and felt it when it went up, it shook the walls here.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:25 am 
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What power plant is this? Note: I have been in a no-news bubble the past few days so sorry if this was a big story, I missed it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:31 am 
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Connecticut power plant exploded, five people dead, dozens injured. Yeah, fairly major story.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/07/connec ... index.html

Five killed in Connecticut power plant blast
February 7, 2010 10:06 p.m. EST

Image


Middletown, Connecticut (CNN) -- Five people were killed and at least 12 were injured in a gas explosion Sunday at an under-construction power plant in central Connecticut, local officials said.

Residents up to 20 miles away reported hearing the blast at about 11:19 a.m. at the Kleen Power Plant in Middletown, a suburb of Hartford, Connecticut.

"There is no present or continuing threat to anybody from either substances getting into the atmosphere or of a possible subsequent explosion," Middletown Mayor Sebastian Giuliano said, adding terrorism has been ruled out.

He said plant workers were purging a natural gas pipeline when the explosion occurred.

"Urban search-and-rescue teams are on the premises ... with dogs, attempting to locate and account for further victims," Giuliano said.

It's unknown how many people were working in the plant, which was about 95 percent complete, at the time of the explosion. Multiple contractors were involved in the project, Giuliano said, complicating efforts to account for those who may have been on the site.

"[Each contractor] has their own foreperson, their own employee list, so we're trying to sort that out," Giuliano said.

Deputy Fire Marshal Al Santostefano said later Sunday that no one has come forward with any names of missing people and dogs have not detected signs of life beneath the rubble left by the explosion.

The plant was expected to go online this summer, Giuliano said.

Santostefano initially said about 50 people, most of them construction workers, were working at the time, but Giuliano said "we don't know that as a hard number right now."

"What I've been told by the owners of the project is that there could be anywhere from 100 to 200 people working on the site on any given day," Giuliano said.

But Santostefano later said the numbers Giuliano cited were weekday figures, and he repeated his estimate of 50 to 60 people at the site Sunday when the explosion occurred. He said he thought most of those escaped the blast.

A no-fly zone was established over the site because of the unstable structure, Gov. Jodi Rell announced Sunday night.

Middlesex Hospital in Middletown said it received 11 patients from the explosion. One patient with serious injuries was flown to a hospital in Hartford, and another was transferred to Yale New Haven Hospital, according to a statement on Middlesex's Web site. Two others had minor injuries and were treated and released. The remaining seven patients sustained injuries "mainly to the extremities, including broken bones, blunt trauma and abdominal pains," the statement said.

Emergency room physician Dr. Jonathan Bankoff told reporters that some patients reported being thrown 30 or 40 feet by the blast.

Two people were airlifted directly to the Hartford hospital from the scene, Middlesex spokesman R. Brian Albert said. A center was being set up at Middletown's City Hall for relatives of plant workers, he said.

As of late Sunday afternoon, the hospital said it was not expecting more patients from the plant.

After the explosion, it took a while for emergency crews to get into the plant, Santostefano said, because the plant was on fire and the natural gas had to be turned off at the source. No major incidents at the site had been reported since construction began there a couple of years ago, he said.

People miles away reported hearing or feeling the blast.

"It felt like the house was shaking," Peter Moore, who lives about 10 miles away in Durham, told CNN. He said he thought at first there had been a traffic accident on his street or there was a problem with his house.

Moore said his mother, who lives in Woodbridge, about 20 miles away from the plant, also said she heard the explosion, and said it "sounded like someone pounded on the back door a couple of times."

"It was almost like an earthquake," nearby resident Lynn Townsend told CNN affiliate WTNH. She said she heard the explosion and went outside to see "a very big, bright orange flame" between the plant's two smokestacks, and immediately dialed 911.

"It really shook the house," she said. "Everybody was scared. The kids started to cry."

WTNH.com coverage of Middletown explosion

Connecticut State Police Lt. J. Paul Vance told WTNH his agency has received "an immense amount of inquiries" from residents who heard or felt the explosion.

The site is a 620-megawatt gas-fired power plant, according to plant manager Gordon Holk.

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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:37 am 
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That be the one. Shook the wall next to me when it happened.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:37 am 
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Wow that's terrible. Makes you wonder what exactly happened. If it was just a freak accident or someone did something they shouldnt have. I have a bad day and a router or circuit goes down, those guys have a bad day and the whole plant goes up.

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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:59 am 
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An investigation is ongoing to see if possibly criminal negligence was the cause, as they said, "if everything had gone right we wouldn't be standing here today".


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:01 am 
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Ah... so are all new topics to be posted directly in this thread now? ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:32 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Ah... so are all new topics to be posted directly in this thread now? ;)


If you want. ;)

I felt the thread needed a direction change.


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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:15 am 
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Man, I wish I'd linked the article when I saw it earlier, because now I can't find it, but it seems that aid is not getting to Haitians as it should because people have seen what the Haitian gov't did to that missionary group and now are ultra cautious about how they handle things to the point that people who need to be evacuated are not being evacuated. A group of kids were apparently left there, who needed to be air-lifted to the U.S. for medical treatment, but the aid groups are paralyzed now for fear of being arrested. Unless every i is dotted and every t is crossed.....Meanwhile, children die for lack of aid and medical treatment.

I'll give a link if I find the story again.....

Still can't find the article, the above was just a few paragraphs in a larger story about medical conditions in Haiti. IIRC, there was some news about babies dying of malnutrition because the moms stopped lactating after the earthquake, and such news.

Of course, given the "Blame the Americans instead of the Haitian officials" mood on the board, this should be treated as hearsay and nothing more.


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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
Of course, given the "Blame the Americans instead of the Haitian officials" mood on the board, this should be treated as hearsay and nothing more.

First of all, there's no "mood" or "bandwagon", here. Just because a lot of people disagree with your assessment of the situation doesn't mean that they're in some kind of nefarious collusion against you, your country, or your religion. You keep trying to turn this into "us against them", but that's an overly simplistic, inaccurate, and frankly, insulting generalization.

Speaking for myself, there are many Christian aid groups in Haiti right now who, I don't doubt, are doing a lot of good. I wish them all well. I'm also not "against" these particular missionaries, nor necessarily even "against" their plan. I don't particularly want to see them imprisoned, given that I don't think any of them had ill intent. And if most of them were actually deceived into thinking that they had the proper legal authorization to carry out their plan, then the charges against them should be dropped. However, to the extent that any of them did know that they were trying to transport children across a national border without the authorization to do so -- they are at fault. That law is not an unreasonable one, even under present circumstances. If they chose to knowingly violate it (and again, this may only apply to one or two of them), then yes, they have no one to blame but themselves.

This isn't about taking sides. I'm not "on the side" of the Haitian officials. On the contrary, I think that the Haitian government's history suggests that it is ineffectual at best, and there's probably a lot of corruption in it. But as the old saying goes, even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I may not like the Haitian government, and I may be sympathetic to the intentions of these missionaries, but I don't think it's proper to allow my personal sympathies to inform my judgement when it comes to matters of law and fact.

Now as to the article you read and your accompanying comment, let me just make two observations:

1) It shouldn't be considered hearsay because of some kind of alleged "anti-missionary" mood (see rebuttal above). It should be considered hearsay because, at this point, it is hearsay. That's not an epithet, it's just the logical truth of the matter. I believe that you did see such an article. However, "Beryllin says that a reporter says, that an aid worker says that ..." is, in fact, hearsay. Logically, it is not evidence of anything. Even a journalistic article that reports witness statements of this sort is ultimately hearsay. Which is why journalistic ethics are hotly debated and why reputable sources are important.

2) Even supposing that the article is accurate, what of it? That some aid organizations are overreacting to this situation is not the fault of the Haitian government. Again, this is one specific set of circumstances with a particular group of people who were carrying out a particular course of actions. There is no evidence or reason whatsoever to believe that the Haitian government is carrying out some wider "crack down" on aid organizations. If the actions of and aid group during the past one+ month so far haven't caused any legal issues so far, then there's no reason to believe that they ever will. Discontinuing them would just be alarmism. I'm sorry that some aid groups are acting like the sky falling. But that doesn't have any bearing on whether the Haitian government's actions are justified in this particular case.

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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:47 pm 
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If the Haitian government is truely found to be corruptly holding American aid workers and trumping up charges, whether against tis group or any others and using this tragedy to line their pockets or anything else nefarious we have more than enough troops in the country to make them regret it and resuce the aid workers.

I find it highly unlikely that a government with no meaningful military power would start kidnapping Americans with the equivlent of an enhanced Brigade already on their soil and helping them recover from a disaster.

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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
what the Haitian gov't did to that missionary group

You mean, enforce the law?


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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:47 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
what the Haitian gov't did to that missionary group

You mean, enforce the law?


Riiggghhhhtttttttt.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35337741/ns ... earthquake

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp ... 0#35320200


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 Post subject: Re: nm
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:50 pm 
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Beryllin wrote:
FarSky wrote:
Beryllin wrote:
what the Haitian gov't did to that missionary group

You mean, enforce the law?


Riiggghhhhtttttttt.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35337741/ns ... earthquake


The judge determining that there was no criminal intent does not mean the people making the arrest in the first place were not enforcing the law. That's how a judicial system works; there's different steps and just because charges aren't pursued or innocence is determined at one step doesn't mean the prior steps were somehow nefarious.

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