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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Hence, I think, Aizle, why Cameron is only okay -- in comparison.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:48 am 
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Watchmen and Dist 9 also came out in 2009, both of which are good sci-fi movies. (and more original)

Don't get me wrong, after realizing that over analyzing everything wasn't fun, I found that I did enjoy Avatar. I just don't want to give Cameron too much credit. Avatar is an accomplishment of the artists that created the animation (who probably grew up playing MTG and reading comic books), not Cameron's story telling or directorial work.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:30 am 
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Tarantino has never made a great movie. Tarantino has made great scenes that comprise mediocre movies. Every one of his movies is a disjointed collection of awesome scenes that together, somehow fail to even equal the sum of their parts. His magnum opus, Pulp Fiction, is the perfect example: Memorable characters and scenes that will live on in people's minds forever, but the movie just wasn't that good. It's the same for everything he's done.

Cameron is a complete moviemaker. He may lack originality (Let's face it -- Aliens was a sequel, Titanic was based on historical events, Avatar is Pocahontas with blue space elves), but rather than using Tarantino's approach of dipping a bunch of neat ideas in glue and throwing them at the wall and hoping they form a cohesive whole, Cameron's more traditional holistic approach to film-making actually creates entire movies that were memorable. (I hated Titanic and the Abyss, for the record.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:44 am 
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I'm not really sure I understand why "originality" is to be so prized. Having a tale well-told, even if it is familiar, is far superior than originality for originality's sake to me. I enjoyed Avatar much more than anything I've ever found in David Lynch's canon, for example.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:15 am 
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FarSky wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand why "originality" is to be so prized.


True. There's nothing truly original, anyway. Humanity has been retelling the same stories for longer than we've had the written word. Every fable, faerie tale, epic, parable, myth...it's all derivative. We just find new ways to combine the existing elements.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:44 pm 
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I will say this...of all the movies I've seen this past year, or parts of movies, no matter how much I either loved them or hated them, and I actually really loved both Avatar and Inglorious Bastards, I can't think of a better single cinematic sequence I've seen in any film in years than when Christoph Waltz as the Nazi Colonel Hans Landa rode up to the family home of a French dairy farmer, played by Denis Menochet, suspected of hiding a Jewish family, and interrogated him to the point of breaking.

Sometimes all you need are a few great scenes or moments to make a great movie.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Tarantino has never made a great movie. Tarantino has made great scenes that comprise mediocre movies. Every one of his movies is a disjointed collection of awesome scenes that together, somehow fail to even equal the sum of their parts. His magnum opus, Pulp Fiction, is the perfect example: Memorable characters and scenes that will live on in people's minds forever, but the movie just wasn't that good. It's the same for everything he's done.

Cameron is a complete moviemaker. He may lack originality (Let's face it -- Aliens was a sequel, Titanic was based on historical events, Avatar is Pocahontas with blue space elves), but rather than using Tarantino's approach of dipping a bunch of neat ideas in glue and throwing them at the wall and hoping they form a cohesive whole, Cameron's more traditional holistic approach to film-making actually creates entire movies that were memorable. (I hated Titanic and the Abyss, for the record.)


Heh, I enjoyed both of those. Actually, I enjoyed everything about Titanic except for Leonard Di Caprio, who was just horribly miscast and utterly unbelievable as someone from the early 20th century.

But, yeah, Tarantino has a knack for scene-making, and persistence.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 am 
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Aethien wrote:
Heh, I enjoyed both of those. Actually, I enjoyed everything about Titanic except for Leonard Di Caprio, who was just horribly miscast and utterly unbelievable as someone from the early 20th century.



I won't criticize that opinion. 1.8 Billion dollars agree with you. The fact that I didn't enjoy it doesn't affect Cameron's bottom line that much.

Now with The Abyss, I've got box-office ammo to support me! (Not that I rate movies based on their popularity, in either case.)

Avatar was nothing less than spectacular, though.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:04 am 
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Slythe wrote:
I will say this...of all the movies I've seen this past year, or parts of movies, no matter how much I either loved them or hated them, and I actually really loved both Avatar and Inglorious Bastards, I can't think of a better single cinematic sequence I've seen in any film in years than when Christoph Waltz as the Nazi Colonel Hans Landa rode up to the family home of a French dairy farmer, played by Denis Menochet, suspected of hiding a Jewish family, and interrogated him to the point of breaking.

Sometimes all you need are a few great scenes or moments to make a great movie.


Yep. This scene alone is infinitely better than anything Avatar was. What a way to start a movie.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:39 pm 
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http://www.weregeek.com/2010/02/10/

>>

<<

:ugeek:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:20 pm 
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... wow.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Squirrel Girl wrote:


Awesome!

Bravo for the find!

I saw Avatar and I have to say that besides the 3D induced migraine, I had a pretty good time. It was nice to actually see the action as most movies these days have gone the way of the "gritty" action scenes with the cameras shaking for "intensity". On the originality question, at least it wasn't a sequel or a remake.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:51 pm 
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The highest grossing film of all time is a reverse-gender Smurfette slash fic.

Actually, that makes perfect sense. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Well, I think Tarintino is a good story teller imo. I'm more into literature than films, but story-telling in general has familiar traits no matter the medium. Some of that is subjective interpretation, of course.

Originality is always completely necessary. There's always a place for pulp fiction. It's simple and and fun. Not everything has to be cerebral. That said... If I were a wealthy creator of tales such as Cameron, I think I'd try harder instead of resting on my laurels and doing something really easy. To each their own.

"Condition people to expect nothing, and the littlest thing gets them all excited."

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:42 pm 
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Originality is a fabrication at this point in our artistic history. It simply doesn't exist. What we call "originality" is nothing more than assembling parts we've seen hundreds of times already in an order that we haven't.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm 
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Talya wrote:
FarSky wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand why "originality" is to be so prized.


True. There's nothing truly original, anyway. Humanity has been retelling the same stories for longer than we've had the written word. Every fable, faerie tale, epic, parable, myth...it's all derivative. We just find new ways to combine the existing elements.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:57 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Talya wrote:
FarSky wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand why "originality" is to be so prized.


True. There's nothing truly original, anyway. Humanity has been retelling the same stories for longer than we've had the written word. Every fable, faerie tale, epic, parable, myth...it's all derivative. We just find new ways to combine the existing elements.



Is quoting yourself in a thread on the same page so pretentious that it loops around and is no longer pretentious? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:59 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
I'm not really sure


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:01 am 
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Darkroland wrote:
The highest grossing film of all time is a reverse-gender Smurfette slash fic.

Actually, that makes perfect sense. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:19 am 
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FarSky wrote:
Originality is a fabrication at this point in our artistic history. It simply doesn't exist. What we call "originality" is nothing more than assembling parts we've seen hundreds of times already in an order that we haven't.


Surely there i a point at which I could repackage a favorite story of yours to a certain degree to which you'd be all like "this is unoriginal bullshit."

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I agree with the originality thing, it's impossible to make a character that isn't already an established archetype or etc. I think it might be more accurate to say I'm criticizing the lack of imagination. They really "phoned it in" as it were. Still enjoyed it though. I subjectively just think I'd try harder if I were a multimillion dollar director with a large budget.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:52 am 
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This is the most salient take on the matter I've seen.

Jim Butcher wrote:
Personally, I'm of the belief that cliches are entirely relative to how well they're utilized. If you screw it up, it's a cliche. If you use it properly, it undergoes a mystic transformation into an archetype.

If I wrote a story about an apprentice-wizard farmboy, an old wizard, a princess, a pirate, a dark knight and a talking bear, and there's a dark castle and a mission to save the princess, the audience reaction to it is going to be based on how well executed the story is, not on how tired people might think the common plot elements are. Done wrong, it's some bit of horrible pulp that rots on an assistant editor's floor. Done right, it's Star Wars.

"Done right" generally means adding a thin coat of paint to the tired old bits, so that they look shiny and new. It's silly, but that thin coat of paint is important. I mean, it helps you flip a house for ridiculous amounts of profit, right? Same thing with stories.

Maybe I'm personally embittered, but in my experience, most people who scream about tired plot devices and sneer about exactly where something was derived from have got kind of an inward focus, and don't bother to actually think about whether or not they might be right, because they're really busy /wanting/ to be right. So the usual move is to say "THIS SUCKS, HE STOLE IT FROM X." X is generally the most recent example of something close to whatever it is he wants to tear down, and never mind that the X he's thinking of was generally stolen, and obviously so, from a previous source, which took it from a previous source which took it from a previous source, etc, etc.

The best example I've ever heard of this kind of thinking: A friend of my son's who asked me who I was listening to while I was washing dishes. I said, "That, m'boy, is Twist and Shout by the Beatles." He screws up his face and goes, "Ah, the Beatles suck. They sound just like everybody else."

He was a child, I reminded myself. He was eleven. Must not kill him. It's ignorance. Forgive him for he knows not what he does. And in my magnificent forgiveness, I turned the stereo WAY up and went back to the dishes


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:58 pm 
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James Cameron has always been fully on my "cool" list simply for the following:

"James Cameron: Hi, I´m Jim Cameron. Now what you just saw was the original ending to my film Titanic. Now I decided to change the ending after a disastrous test screening in which the audience tore up the seats, set fire to the theater and chased me down the street booing and spitting. I´m presenting this original ending to you, the Saturday Night Live viewer, in the hopes that you can see beyond the fact that is stupid and crazy and ruins the movie. And realize how cool it would´ve been to see a really old lady get beat up. So, for Saturday Night Live, I´m James Cameron saying "you´re the king of the world". (James lights his cigar with a burning $100 dollar bill) Thanks."

Him lighting up a 100 dollar bill and smoking it had me rolling. Still makes me smile thinking about it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Where exactly is that from Numbuk? Any video proof?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Slythe wrote:
Where exactly is that from Numbuk? Any video proof?


Thanks to the ridiculous SNL crackdown on all videos not "officially approved", I couldn't find a clip.

Found a transcript though - http://snltranscripts.jt.org/98/98jtitanic.phtml


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:13 am 
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Yeah it was from an SNL where Bill Paxton was the host. They did a skit of Titanic with the "alternate ending." I remember watching it over 10 years ago. It was great.

It was the real Jim Cameron too. :D

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