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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Had this linked to me and thought I would share it.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/In-the-Literature/2009/May/What-Does-It-Cost-Physician-Practices-to-Interact.aspx

Quote:
Synopsis
A national study of nearly 900 U.S. physicians and medical group administrators found that physicians spent on average 142 hours annually interacting with health plans, at an estimated annual cost to physician practices of $31 billion, or $68,274 on average per physician, per year.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Issue
Administrative costs are high in health care. While those incurred by physician offices are a contributor to overall administrative costs, very little information has been available regarding the costs physician practices incur when they interact with health insurance plans. The authors surveyed a national sample of physicians and medical group administrators to ascertain how much time physician practices spent interacting with health plans on prior-authorization requirements, pharmaceutical formularies, claims, credentialing, contracting, and quality data. The study examines in depth the extent of such interactions, generating both time and dollar value estimates for such administration.

Key Findings

Physicians, on average, spent nearly three weeks per year interacting with health plans, or 3.0 hours per week.

Primary care physicians spent significantly more time (3.5 hours per week) than medical specialists (2.6 hours) or surgical specialists (2.1 hours).

Nursing staff spent an additional 23 weeks per year per physician interacting with health plans, while clerical staff spent 44 weeks.

Compared with other interactions, physicians, on average, spent more time dealing with formularies (1.7 hours per week for primary care doctors, for example), and the least on submitting or reviewing health plan quality data (0.04 hours per week for all physicians).

Converted into dollars, practices spent an average of $68,274 per physician per year interacting with health plans; primary care practices spent $64,859 annually per physician, nearly one-third of the income, plus benefits, of the typical primary care physician. This results in an estimated $31 billion per year spent by physician practices on interactions with health plans.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Am I doing the math correctly in that physicians are worth $500/hr?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Am I doing the math correctly in that physicians are worth $500/hr?


I can't speak to the study, but the BLS doesn't think so:

http://www.bls.gov/OES/current/oes291069.htm

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Code:
Employment (1) Employment RSE (3) Mean hourly wage Mean annual wage (2) Wage RSE (3)

262,850           1.5 %          $79.33            $165,000           1.1 %




Edit: I think what's altering your math is that you're probably dividing the ~$68k into 3 hours per week (the physician-hours per week). That's incorrect. The ~$68k is the total practice expense, not the physician-hours expense. You'd want to combine doc, clinical, and admin staff-time together, then divide the ~$68k into that number.

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Last edited by DFK! on Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:24 pm 
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How else does a 142 hour investment from a single person equal $68,000, then?

Edit - Gotcha. They need to reword the article, then, because it sounds like the physician personally spending 142 hours is costing $68k.

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...physicians spent on average 142 hours annually interacting with health plans, at an estimated annual cost to physician practices of $31 billion, or $68,274 on average per physician, per year.


I take physician to mean doctor, not practice.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:05 pm 
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physician practices= the whole staff. so your billing clerk and the people you hire SPECIFICALLY TO DO THAT TASK

going to go out on a limb and say "Duh"


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:09 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
physician practices= the whole staff. so your billing clerk and the people you hire SPECIFICALLY TO DO THAT TASK

going to go out on a limb and say "Duh"
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you did not read the article; nor, for that matter, did you actually consider the financial and economic impact of administrative inflation in the composite healthcare industry. Consequently, I'm also going to go out on a limb and ask you to refrain from your holier than thou attitude.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:11 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
physician practices= the whole staff. so your billing clerk and the people you hire SPECIFICALLY TO DO THAT TASK

going to go out on a limb and say "Duh"


Not sure you're getting the point then.

The study is merely to point out how large the expense is as a line item. What other industry loses that much money to simply trying to get their money?

Furthermore, small physician practices rarely have dedicated billing clerks anymore, because they can't afford it. Only the large group practices do.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:55 am 
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DFK! wrote:
The study is merely to point out how large the expense is as a line item. What other industry loses that much money to simply trying to get their money?

Most companies spend time and money trying to collect money. The question to be asked that was not examined in the parts of the study I read from the link, is how does that cost compare to the typical cost of collecting money due. My firm does not deal with HMOs or other insurance companies for payment (99% of the time), but we still incur large annual costs just to collect the money we earned for providing our services.

I would of course assume it takes more time if for no other reason than because of the documentation required by the insurance companies to validate the claim, but I would be curious to see what that the difference would be, and I question whether the cost is that much more than the difference between other professions billing private clients versus government clients. Bureaucracy breeds paperwork.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:59 am 
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Ladas wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The study is merely to point out how large the expense is as a line item. What other industry loses that much money to simply trying to get their money?

Most companies spend time and money trying to collect money. The question to be asked that was not examined in the parts of the study I read from the link, is how does that cost compare to the typical cost of collecting money due. My firm does not deal with HMOs or other insurance companies for payment (99% of the time), but we still incur large annual costs just to collect the money we earned for providing our services.

I would of course assume it takes more time if for no other reason than because of the documentation required by the insurance companies to validate the claim, but I would be curious to see what that the difference would be, and I question whether the cost is that much more than the difference between other professions billing private clients versus government clients. Bureaucracy breeds paperwork.


Indeed.

The thing is, a family practice physician on average is going to haul in someplace in the mid 100's. This is at a private office, whose margin may be around 20%-25%, and the margin is the physician's income. This would mean that 12% to 15%, based on rough numbers, is going simply to getting your money. This, from what I can tell by the source, doesn't include other administrative needs.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:18 pm 
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I think a doctor brings into an office far far more than that gross. That money pays for facilities, equipment, training, 2-5 staff members. Of which, the cost of collecting from insurance is just a drop in the bucket. I would estimate most physicisians take home 150k-200k for family care (though thats an educated guess based on being the child of a physcisian)

What percentage to other companies spend on collections and accounts receivable? And whats the alternative?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Some of this cost is to bill for and receive money for services, however some of it is not.

Some of this cost is to get authorizations from insurance to treat a patient. One must obtain authorizations to send a patient to a specialist, to get lab work or imaging studies done, or to get medication or therapy to treat a condition. This takes time and expertise, and as the goblins say, "Time is money, friend!"

If a patient changes insurance, everything must be done all over again. If the pharmacy plan changes formulary it must be done again, or the patient must be changed to a different medication. If the medicine is changed the patient must return to the physician, often several times, to make sure the medicine is tolerated, and is working. This is frustrating for the patient and the doc. The patient does not understand why the medicine has to be changed, and often says, "Doc, if you just send in "X" they will approve my old medicine." But this is NOT true and it is the patient's INSURANCE that is dictating this and increases medical costs.

Also if the doctor is spending time doing this, they are not caring for patients and therefore not making money to pay their rent, and utilities and staff.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:26 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I would estimate most physicisians take home 150k-200k for family care (though thats an educated guess based on being the child of a physcisian)



I wish... :-p

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Most family care doctors I know make in the sub 100k range, with 80-120k being typical.

Specialists make a bit more, but not until you get into the really 'prime' specialties does the average salary raise above 160k or so, from what I recall. Squirrel Girl could probably shed more light on this.

Gross is certainly larger- one physician I worked for said that he cleared about 15% of his bills after paying overhead.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:00 pm 
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I just want to bea ble to pay my everyday doc cash. But the state does everything it can to make the system make as hard as it can to do this.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Squirrel Girl wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
I would estimate most physicisians take home 150k-200k for family care (though thats an educated guess based on being the child of a physcisian)



I wish... :-p



Yea, "most" is wrong. Some? Sure.

NEJM on the issue:
http://www.nejmjobs.org/rpt/physician-i ... ction.aspx
Quote:
Internists in particular appear to be dissatisfied with their incomes, suggesting that they may be open to practice opportunities offering a high level of income potential. Over one-third of physicians surveyed said they earn $125,000 or less a year, well below the average income offers we see for family physicians, internists, and pediatricians.



Also, see my post above which cites the BLS on averages. Listed at $160 or so.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:08 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I just want to bea ble to pay my everyday doc cash. But the state does everything it can to make the system make as hard as it can to do this.


Really? My GP knocks off 30% if you pay him cash/check on the spot, and I do this on a regular basis, and then file for insurance reimbursement myself at a later date.

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