The Glade 4.0

Obviously, since there was no other outburst to be referred to.

Listen carefully to what I'm saying: Nothing in that statement indicates that it was the fact that it was Joe Wilson is important. In that statement, "Joe Wilson's outburst" can easily be replaced by "the outburst" without changing the apparent meaning. I'm not familiar with Jow Wilson's history, so there was no reason for me to think he was significant.

As for Atwater:



1) He gives no reason to think that there is any connection between "nigger" in 1954 and "state's rights " in 1968.
2) He refers to "you", but exactly who "you" is, is undefined, and with 14 years difference, he is almost certainly referring to different people in 1954 as opposed to 1968, and simply assuming that they must share the same motivation because it's politically advantageous to do so.
3) He rests the assertion of racism on "blacks get hurt worse than whites". How he knows this is unstated, and even if true, the mere fact that something might do so doesn't make it racist. It would only be racist if that was a specific purpose of the policy, but you can't establish that it's a purpose just by establishing that it's an effect.

That policy has not changed in the republican party. A good example would be the 2000 Republican primary, when Karl Rove had thousands of pamphlets released in Kentucky (?) accusing John McCain of having a black love child.

But it's not just a dozen people. It's a large majority of the crowds in those places. It's sad, but true. The majority of the tea party protesters have either latched on to the conspiracy theories about Obama's citizenship, the lies about death panels and such crap, or are just overtly racist.

No, they haven't. You can say it as much as you want, but people have real fears and concerns. They don't like what the president stands for and what he is trying to do to this country.

Nah. Its just easier for the left to dismiss the entire bunch of people as racists and be done with them.

Nah. Its just easier for the left to dismiss the entire bunch of people as racists and be done with them.

Their fear may be real, but it's based on lies and misinformation, and for many, it's based on racism. It's based on fear of Liberals. It's based on the lies about death panels. It's based on the lies about Obama not being from this country.

Sorry, but the Tea Party protesters are not making a good case for their rationality. And the Republican Party is actually supporting them, which doesn't make the case that those people are on the fringe. Several elected Republicans have co-opted the lies about Death Panels and Obama's citizenship. It's pretty shocking, really.

Pointing out their racism is important. Furthermore, no one is disimssing them *all* as racists.

Pointing out their racism is important. Furthermore, no one is disimssing them *all* as racists. What is being pointed out is the racist undertone to the screaming, yelling, and crazy conspiracies that are currently dominating not only the fringe extremists shouting them out, but the elected Republicans in office.

Has been for years.

External Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion.

You can prove that a particular media outlet is biased, and that's perfectly acceptable. But our major media outlets simply are not. .

I just don't agree with that, Nitefox, on several levels. First, your argument presumes a left leaning media. That assumption is often taken as a basic premise in this debate and in other places, but when taken on it's merits it often fails to hold up to scrutiny. It amounts to poisoning the well "well, the media is lefty, so...".

You can prove that a particular media outlet is biased, and that's perfectly acceptable. But our major media outlets simply are not.

But all of that is a side tangent.

What real questions are being raised? Death Panels? That's not a real question. Or rather, it's been answered for a long while. There are no death panels. Government takeover of health care? Also completely answered. Obama's birth? Answered. Coverage for illegals? Answered.

All of these questions are easy to answer with a minimum of research. However, they persist, in my opinion, not because they have not yet been answered, but because they give people something to yell about.

I would say Fox is a mirror to MSNBC/NBC and how far they are from center.

I would say Fox is a mirror to MSNBC/NBC and how far they are from center.

Prove that, qualitatively.

But I can. And I did. Fox News viewers are significantly more likely to believe erroneous information given to them by Fox News. their network lies more frequently, and their viewers believe those lies more frequently, than any other network. Fox is more biased, and less accurate, than any other network on television.

They perpetuate more falsehoods, and those falsehoods are specifically conservative falsehoods, than anyone else. I'm sorry, but by any real metric, Fox takes the cake when it comes to bias, misinformation, and political tug jobs for their "team"

No, it's not. For some? Maybe so. But again, just like with the race card, you are saying that all conservatives believe in the death panels and the birther crap.