The Glade 4.0

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... ssinations

Lets be audacious in our hope for change!

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I'm getting a 404 error for that page Elmo.

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"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." Charles Mackay

I did not find the Washington Post article referenced in the Salon post, but searching the following brings up several legitimate news stories.

"We take direct actions against terrorists in the intelligence community; if we think that direct action will involve killing an American, we get specific permission to do that"

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"Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one." Charles Mackay

I haven't heard of any citizen assassinations in the past 9.5 years.

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That seems reasonable to me. The President can also pardon people. Big deal. If he assassinated a bunch of innocents and the media found out, do you think he'd get re-elected? Nope.

Do you really think you would have?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

In Soviet America, habeus corpses you?

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I do yes. Do you think our government would be capable enough to cover something like this up?

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Hey Lincoln did it to everyone so why not just do it to some people now.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Honestly, yes. On a large scale, no, but individual actions spread over a period of time, or used infrequently with little to no connection between them, sure.

Do they? No clue, but I hope not.

Yes, for at least a decade, if not more. Apparently they can lose 800,000 gallons of fuel into their water system for years on end, why not whack a few citizens.




Furthermore, even if you're correct, having not exercised an illegal and immoral power doesn't make the power less illegal or immoral.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I was trying to jump in front of the sky-is-falling train. So in an asymmetrical war against terrorists when do you cross the line from American Citizen to enemy combatant? When you build 50 pipe bombs in your basement or do you have to actually deploy them? I don't see a happy middle-ground on this because it is not black and white.

The person on Salon intentionally threw up a strawman of people sleeping in their beds being murdered by the government. But what about the guy with a rental truck loaded with fertilizer and det cord trying to park under a bridge who refuses to comply with police? Assuming he is licensed to handle both components when can you take action? What action would be reasonable? Is he eating lunch and doesn't want to be hassled or is he waiting for sufficient traffic build up to detonate his payload?

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Assuming we're talking about US citizens and not some vaguely defined "enemy combatant," because that only muddies the issue and I don't want to get into it: your rights are never suspended or ignored. Ever. Habeus corpus should always be in place.

There is no grey line. There is no ticking bomb. This is either a "rule of law" country, or not. Our founders denied totalitarianism. These violations of rights ARE totalitarianism, and people willing to violate those principles are greater dangers to our country than any terrorist.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Guess that's the danger of living in a "free country", eh?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Assuming this is addressed at Hopwin and not me:

Yes.

Very much, yes.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Targetted killings of individuals can help our country in some situations. Terrorists only cause destruction and mayhem, and definitely are a greater danger.

No, it can't help our country.

No, they aren't a greater danger.

You pretend to advocate totalitaristic utilitarianism though, so I'm not surprised you're pretending to advocate this, troll.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

It sounds deceptively reasonable on paper. However there's Assassinate (Premeditated decision to kill someone) and there is what the cops do everyday: An at the situation officer involved shooting to end an immediate threat against the live of an other(s). This should be handled on site by the appropriate authority (Feds here, spooks or soldiers aboard)

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

The "Rule of Law" in this country allows the suspension of Habeus Corpus. It is specifically written into the Constituion.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yes, it can help our country. Examples are known terrorists that the feds don't have enough concrete evidence to arrest, but who clearly are a great danger.

Terrorists are the ultimate violators of rights. A typical terrorist detonates explosives near civilians, and there is no greater violation than mass murder. "Assassins", if you might call them, would be sent by the government to kill presumably dangerous individuals. This protects people who they may hurt.



I don't advocate "totalitaristic utilitarianism", and I will ignore your name calling. I think that free markets and freedom of choice are the best approaches for a healthy society. However, to keep society stable, policies such as targeted killing should be in place.

Do tell.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

There's a marked difference between "targeted killings" and using lethal force against an agent threatening the lives of citizens. What exactly do you mean by "targeted killings". And I think you mean "totalitarian utilitarianism" since "totalitaristic" isn't a word.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

From the Washington Post article:

Bring him back if you find him, dead or alive.

With Obama being the Commander in Chief, I'm OK with him telling the Joint Special Operations Command that.

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In time, this too shall pass.

It is that vague, it is not black and white, you can be a US Citizen and a terrorist so which title should law enforcement give precedence to, your rights as a citizen or your role as a terrorist?

As for you assertion that habeus corpus should always be in place, what about the man who has a gun to another's head? The cops will kill on sight and should.

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Ok, first of all, examples where the cops shoot someone who is engaging in a crime of violence against them or another are not really good comparisons. If, for example, the american citizen in question is actually holding a rifle or missile launcher, manning an artillery piece, etc and shooting at American troops and gets killed.. well, American soldiers are also citizens and have the right to defend themselves against other citizens who assault them. It has nothing to do with assassinations.

In the case of Americans who go overseas and engage in hostile activities with foriegn nations against this country, there's a serious issue.

On the one hand, if you go overseas and engage in hostile activity agains this country, that's a military matter. It's not a law enforcement matter, and if you get your *** killed in the process, you're not the victim of excessive force just because you weren't actually shooting at Americans at the time you were killed. It's a national defense matter. American citizens who disagree with this country cannot just go hang out with terrorists or dictators and use their status as citizens to make themselves into human shields for our enemies. If you choose to do this and get a bomb dropped on you because you camped out at someone's surface-to-air missile site or terrorist camp.. tough ****. Maybe Jane Fonda wasn't such a good role model after all.

On the other hand, that does not mean the government can do the same thing inside the U.S. and call in law enforcement unless it's actually part of the process of defense against a bona fide insurrection or invasion. (The question of terrorists notwithstanding; if the terrorist attack is so large or of such a physical nature that the police and national guard, which are allowed to do law enforcement can't handle it, it's an invasion.) It also does not mean the government can just drop bombs on U.S. citizens in foriegn countries because it does not like what they are doing there.

Essentially, the government should not target American citizens in and of themselves. However, if Americans get killed in the process of attacking foriegn targets because the Americans were associating with them, that's their own damn fault. You go hang out with terrorists at your own risk. Take responsibility for your own actions.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."