The Glade 4.0

I have explained why it is currently a "right." If you're looking for justification of why I think it should be a "right", I don't really think that is relevant to the discussion.

Pretty sure he's getting you to explain what about "getting an education" equates it to, say, life, liberty, and property.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I think Khross is referring to a special definition of right that does not pertain to government entitlements.

I'd much prefer for him to actually contribute something to the thread instead of trying to coerce other posters.

Aizle:

Actually, I'm trying to get you to explain to me how legislative mandates of action constitute rights; because, honestly, that's a rather appalling definition. Moreover, how do you get past the circular logic that legislative mandates represent the will of the people? It seems to me you continue to hold onto a particular ideology about democracy that is neither accurate nor present in the United States.

So, how, exactly, is education a right?

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First, thanks. By actually explaining what you're looking for or what you're thinking, I'm actually better able to respond.

Education isn't really a right per se. It's currently mandated by law to be provided, which is similar but not exactly the same. And as I stated in my first post, that is a good part of the problem. It's been created as a de-facto right, but without the same level of clarity and process as other rights. Additionally, there hasn't been very much clarity put around the circumstances that you can lose the right. Everyone has their own assumptions on what it is or should be, and that causes a lot of the confusion.

I'm not sure what you mean by circular logic, but I do believe that if the people are truly upset about a certain law or right and there is a majority then it will get changed over time. So while we are definately a representative democracy, the will of the people does eventually get done in time. Education has had almost universal support (at varying levels) in the country for a very long time, so I stand by my comment.

You have to be kidding me.

Aizle:

Really? The will of the people gets done? Did you watch the President's presentation this morning?

Here's the fundamental problem with constructing Education as a right: Intellectual Property. The notion of education, either as right or legislative mandate, dictates that Intellectual Property cannot exist. All knowledge must be public domain. More importantly, and vastly more damaging, it systematically devalues knowledge and marginalizes skill development. Take, for instance, economic fall out of Open Enrollment in the 70s: Bachelor's Degrees are generally worthless. Likewise, the quality of education and skill development in the United States continues diminish because of the entitlement paradigm attached to rights. And, finally, as I demonstrated more than once, the current education system privileges the least qualified to teach. Education majors are, statistically speaking, the only better than criminal justice majors academically and intellectually. It's terrifying to think, in fact, that the average composite SAT of Education Majors is a standard deviation below the population mean. Consequently, knowledge and ability are further marginalized because the least qualified are the licensed teachers. Add that to the fact that current political ambition is make a Bachelor's degree a mandated entitlement like High School, and the absolute collapse of the American education system is on our hands.

So, as the score card stands ...

I don't think the people are getting what they want at all.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
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Khross:

I didn't watch it. What was it about?

I understand your arguments against education as a right. I think it is a HUGE leap to equate guarenteed education with Intellectual Property. Especially when it comes to the education that is provided by the goverment today, which is to say a High School Education. There isn't anything happening there that isn't already very commonly accessable information. I fail to see any IP concerns.

There is some truth that providing education to everyone does raise the bar on what it takes to differentiate ones self from the masses, but it doesn't fundamentally change that game. It only changes where the minimum acceptable standards are. And I don't view that as a bad thing. In point of fact, it's that vary prinicple that's used every day in business. You perform better and so the bar is raised. You're expected to more to differentiate yourself from the competition because those services/value/etc. that you now provide have become the new norm. It's this process in fact that has allowed the US to become the super power that it is today.

That is not to say there aren't some deep rooted problems with our education system today, but that is a seperate issue.

me, you ... back room?

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In time, this too shall pass.

Should moderation be done in-thread or should that be private too?

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I'd rather be spanked in private, thank you.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Seconded, I'd much rather you be spanked in private

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So would everyone else. No one wants to hear about your proclivities.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Except history conclusively proves, at least with regard to the U.S., that the bar didn't raise. I doubt most of you could pass my exit exams for my B.A.

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Wouldn't we first have to take your classes?

How much history are we going to review here Khross? The recent history which has some troubles related to implementation not ideological principle, or the larger history of the US which paints a very different picture?

Aizle:

The larger history doesn't paint a different picture at all. The narrative you want to weave is not, in actuality, supported by the facts or history of public education.

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You have a Bachelor's degree, right? You've already had the classes.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Even if you're correct here, many other countries do this as well. Why aren't they all super powers too?



I haven't taken a history course since AP U.S. history in high school.

Perhaps not, but without taking the classes I took I doubt you could properly explain how to conduct a defensive obstacle plan properly, or how to conduct a hasty bridge evaluation.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye:

Exit Exams were for general studies portions of the degree: Literature, Composition, Mathematics, Sciences, Economics. Written and Oral projects constituted major related end testing.

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I don't think there's a right to public education, as such. However, given that state governments assess property taxes (in part) for the explicit purpose of funding public education, I'd say that the people paying those taxes are entitled to getting their money's worth (fat chance).

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.