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 Post subject: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:43 pm 
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Oral arguments are scheduled to start tomorrow, March 2, 2010.
Here's the wiki on it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago

I'm thinking there's going to be some changes in state and local gun laws coming from this. Nevertheless, we'll see just how much of a "right to bear arms" the Supreme Court feels is conferred by the 2nd amendment.

Does Deeger still visit these forums? I seem to remember some arguments he made on gun control. Monty's ability to post will be reinstated tomorrow too, I believe his thoughts conflicted with mine on this subject...

It's pretty cut and dried for me. I don't think any discussion on the merits of gun control matter, frankly. It's a right. Case closed. Rights can be restricted in certain instances and locations, but I think a location as big as Chicago is too big to declare a gun free zone. A courthouse? Sure, I understand. Not a whole city, not even the smallest in the US.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:48 pm 
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This is a no-brainer according to the current interpretation of the Constitution, and recent precedent. State law cannot override federal protections, and with the recent tearing down of the DC handgun ban, it seems obvious where the High Court stands on the interpretation of the Second Amendment.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Except, the Court has changed since then.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
This is a no-brainer according to the current interpretation of the Constitution, and recent precedent. State law cannot override federal protections, and with the recent tearing down of the DC handgun ban, it seems obvious where the High Court stands on the interpretation of the Second Amendment.

Apparently the Bill of Rights can be selectively applied which comes as a barn-sized smack in the head to me. If that wikipedia article is accurate some case referenced as Slaughterhouse created a loophole for states to restrict the BoR in at least some circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:59 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Except, the Court has changed since then.


A liberal vote replaced a liberal vote, no?

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:08 pm 
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This is a really interesting/exciting case for reasons that go beyond gun control too. From the Wiki link:

Wikipedia wrote:
In addition to claiming the Second Amendment should be incorporated through the selective incorporation process, McDonald is unique among post-Heller gun cases in that it is asking the court to overturn the 1873 Slaughter-House Cases. Slaughter-House determined that the 14th Amendment's Privileges or Immunities Clause did not apply the Bill of Rights to the actions of states (and by extension, local governments). If overturned, the Selective Incorporation process would be moot and unnecessary, as the entire Bill of Rights, including the 2nd Amendment, would be applied against the states.

In attempting to overturn Slaughter-House, this case has garnered the attention and support of liberal legal scholars interested in its potential application in areas outside of firearms law. Their interest is that if Slaughter-House is overturned, it is possible that constitutional guarantees such as the right to a jury in civil cases, right to a grand jury in felony cases, and other parts of the Bill of Rights, as well as future court rulings and existing federal precedent, not universally guaranteed in actions by the states, would be applied against the states automatically.


Even further, if the P&I Clause is significantly rehabilitated, the implications for all kinds of regulations could be huge. Basically, a libertarian's wet dream:

'libertarian activists behind McDonald openly explain that the reason they are pushing the Court to overrule Slaughter-House has nothing to do with guns. Instead, they want to advance a libertarian economic agenda, where federal judges could sit in judgment of state and local laws involving labor, employment, business regulations and other economic issues. Although the Constitution is silent on these matters, these activists want the courts to start declaring constitutional rights against such things, and using the power of the federal judiciary to strike down laws of this sort that the judges don’t like.'


I'd be very surprised if any modern Court, let alone this one, would go that far, but it's definitely going to be fun to watch!


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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:24 pm 
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I was sure that this was going to be something about trans-fats when I clicked it.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:39 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Except, the Court has changed since then.


That replacement is not likely to vote much differently than her predecessor did in the Heller case.

Of course this is a case involving incorporation which the Court as a whole has had a decidely mixed history with. Heller ruled directly on Federal property so may not exactly have the same opinions. In fact a strict Constitutionalist like Thomas may in fact rule that Chicago's ban be upheld as he may in fact be agaisnt the doctrine of incorporation itself.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I was sure that this was going to be something about trans-fats when I clicked it.

I will have NO MOCKERY in this thread! I insist we reserve such tom-foolery to threads you... I mean, other threads.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:50 pm 
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So can the city of Chicago argue that the first and fourth amendments do not apply in the city limits?

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I was sure that this was going to be something about trans-fats when I clicked it.

I will have NO MOCKERY in this thread! I insist we reserve such tom-foolery to threads you... I mean, other threads.


How about douchebaggery? Can we have that?

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
So can the city of Chicago argue that the first and fourth amendments do not apply in the city limits?
Of course not. You can only argue that amendments don't apply when they're things liberals don't like.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:09 pm 
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Technically, under current juridical doctrine, Chicago can. The curious thing is that, technically, incorporation vacates the 10th Amendment and allows the Federal government to impose other Constitutional provisions onto the states.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Is Chicago not incorporated?

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:25 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Is Chicago not incorporated?



Is this a serious question?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Actually, yes. It is.

I know about this much -->||<-- about the city itself, and Khross' comments lead me to believe that they are not incorporated.

Things I know about Chicago:
It is in Illinois
It is on the shore of Lake Michigan
The Bears play there.
They have two equally shitty baseball teams
They filmed The Negotiator there
It is very windy

Aside from that... Yeah. That's about it.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Actually, yes. It is.

I know about this much -->||<-- about the city itself, and Khross' comments lead me to believe that they are not incorporated.

Things I know about Chicago:
It is in Illinois
It is on the shore of Lake Michigan
The Bears play there.
They have two equally shitty baseball teams
They filmed The Negotiator there
It is very windy

Aside from that... Yeah. That's about it.


I asked because incporation in this sense has nothing to do with .inc or corporation in a business sense.

It deals with a part of the Constitution's restrictions on the Federal Government applying to states or local government via being "incoporated" into the 14th ammendment as restrictions on the states and locals. For example the first amendment is incorporated in respect to political speech so no township or state can pass laws to restrict political speech. The second amendment is currently not incorporated which allows states and (a city in this specific case) to do so. If the second is incorporated it would render Chicago and Illinois incapable of restricting the second amendment rights of its citizens (just as the Federal is so restricted as ruled in Heller).

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:21 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Is Chicago not incorporated?


Yes, it is incorporated as a city. Like Elmo said, Khross is referring to a totally different meaning of "incorporation."

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:23 pm 
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Rgr.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Since when do the Bears play in Chicago?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:16 am 
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hEH, TRUE. wHAT THEY DO CAN BE MORE APTLY DESCRIBED AS SUCK. Bloody capslock. Bah!

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:54 am 
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Müs wrote:
hEH, TRUE. wHAT THEY DO CAN BE MORE APTLY DESCRIBED AS SUCK. Bloody capslock. Bah!

I suppose there are worse things in life than being a Bears fan, for example you could be a Seahawks fan. Hehe.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:55 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Müs wrote:
hEH, TRUE. wHAT THEY DO CAN BE MORE APTLY DESCRIBED AS SUCK. Bloody capslock. Bah!

I suppose there are worse things in life than being a Bears fan, for example you could be a Seahawks fan. Hehe.


Or a Browns fan ;p

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:03 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I was sure that this was going to be something about trans-fats when I clicked it.

I will have NO MOCKERY in this thread! I insist we reserve such tom-foolery to threads you... I mean, other threads.


How about douchebaggery? Can we have that?

Yes, but only after 6:00 PM on weekdays. Weekends, of course, are good too.

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 Post subject: Re: McDonald v. Chicago
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Müs wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
I will have NO MOCKERY in this thread! I insist we reserve such tom-foolery to threads you... I mean, other threads.


How about douchebaggery? Can we have that?

Yes, but only after 6:00 PM on weekdays. Weekends, of course, are good too.


GMT?

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