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 Post subject: All In This Together?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:01 pm 
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http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm

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Federal pay ahead of private industry

By Dennis Cauchon, USA TODAY
Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.

Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available.


CHART: Federal salaries compared to private-sector

These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

Federal pay has become a hot political issue in recent months because of concerns over the federal budget deficit and recession-battered wages in the private sector.

Sen. Scott Brown, R-Mass., made federal pay an issue in his successful campaign to fill Edward Kennedy's seat and is fighting for a pay freeze.

The federal government spends about $125 billion annually on compensation for about 2 million civilian employees.

"The data flip the conventional wisdom on its head," says Cato Institute budget analyst Chris Edwards, a critic of federal pay policy. "Federal workers make substantially more than private workers, not less, in addition to having a large advantage in benefits."

But National Treasury Employees Union President Colleen Kelley says the comparison is faulty because it "compares apples and oranges." Federal accountants, for example, perform work that has more complexity and requires more skill than accounting work in the private sector, she says.

"When you look at the actual duties, you see that very few federal jobs align with those in the private sector," she says. She says federal employees are paid an average of 26% less than non-federal workers doing comparable work.

Office of Personnel Management spokeswoman Sedelta Verble, says higher pay also reflects the longevity and older age of federal workers.

USA TODAY used Bureau of Labor Statistics data to compare salaries in every federal job that had a private-sector equivalent. For example, the federal government's 57,000 registered nurses — working for the Veterans Administration and elsewhere — were paid an average of $74,460 a year, $10,680 more than the average for private-sector nurses.

The BLS reports that 216 occupations covering 1.1 million federal workers exist in both the federal government and the private sector. An additional 124 federal occupations covering 750,000 employees — air-traffic controllers, tax collectors and others — did not have direct equivalents, according to the BLS.

Federal jobs have more limited salary ranges than private-sector jobs, some of which have million-dollar payouts.

Key findings:

• Federal. The federal pay premium cut across all job categories — white-collar, blue-collar, management, professional, technical and low-skill. In all, 180 jobs paid better average salaries in the federal government; 36 paid better in the private sector.

•Private. The private sector paid more on average in a select group of high-skill occupations, including lawyers, veterinarians and airline pilots. The government's 5,200 computer research scientists made an average of $95,190, about $10,000 less than the average in the corporate world.

•State and local. State government employees had an average salary of $47,231 in 2008, about 5% less than comparable jobs in the private sector. City and county workers earned an average of $43,589, about 2% more than private workers in similar jobs. State and local workers have higher total compensation than private workers when the value of benefits is included.

Job comparison

Average federal salaries exceed average private-sector pay in 83% of comparable occupations. A sampling of average annnual salaries in 2008, the most recent data:

Job Federal Private Difference
Airline pilot, copilot, flight engineer $93,690 $120,012 -$26,322

Broadcast technician $90,310 $49,265 $41,045

Budget analyst $73,140 $65,532 $7,608

Chemist $98,060 $72,120 $25,940

Civil engineer $85,970 $76,184 $9,786

Clergy $70,460 $39,247 $31,213

Computer, information systems manager $122,020 $115,705 $6,315

Computer support specialist $45,830 $54,875 -$9,045

Cook $38,400 $23,279 $15,121

Crane, tower operator $54,900 $44,044 $10,856

Dental assistant $36,170 $32,069 $4,101

Economist $101,020 $91,065 $9,955

Editors $42,210 $54,803 -$12,593

Electrical engineer $86,400 $84,653 $1,747

Financial analysts $87,400 $81,232 $6,168

Graphic designer $70,820 $46,565 $24,255

Highway maintenance worker $42,720 $31,376 $11,344

Janitor $30,110 $24,188 $5,922

Landscape architects $80,830 $58,380 $22,450

Laundry, dry-cleaning worker $33,100 $19,945 $13,155

Lawyer $123,660 $126,763 -$3,103

Librarian $76,110 $63,284 $12,826

Locomotive engineer $48,440 $63,125 -$14,685

Machinist $51,530 $44,315 $7,215

Mechanical engineer $88,690 $77,554 $11,136

Office clerk $34,260 $29,863 $4,397

Optometrist $61,530 $106,665 -$45,135

Paralegals $60,340 $48,890 $11,450

Pest control worker $48,670 $33,675 $14,995

Physicians, surgeons $176,050 $177,102 -$1,052

Physician assistant $77,770 $87,783 -$10,013

Procurement clerk $40,640 $34,082 $6,558

Public relations manager $132,410 $88,241 $44,169

Recreation worker $43,630 $21,671 $21,959

Registered nurse $74,460 $63,780 $10,680

Respiratory therapist $46,740 $50,443 -$3,703

Secretary $44,500 $33,829 $10,671

Sheet metal worker $49,700 $43,725 $5,975

Statistician $88,520 $78,065 $10,455

Surveyor $78,710 $67,336 $11,374

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Pay alone isn't an indicator of anything. Knowing what I know about such things, I'd imagine that the amount of time in those positions are much higher for government employees than private sector too.

You have to compare apples to apples.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:25 pm 
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I never considered a government job as a chemist. Without 20/20 hindsight, I prolly shoulda. However, with 20/20 hindsight my choices have worked out better anyway.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Pay alone isn't an indicator of anything. Knowing what I know about such things, I'd imagine that the amount of time in those positions are much higher for government employees than private sector too.

You have to compare apples to apples.


How do you figure?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:58 pm 
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I haven't trusted a USA Today Analysis for many years. It is my belief, from looking at several of their so called analyses years ago, that they take the statistics that fit their point and leave anything that contradicts it out. They are semi-tabloid in nature, but hide it behind a family friendly look.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Pay alone isn't an indicator of anything. Knowing what I know about such things, I'd imagine that the amount of time in those positions are much higher for government employees than private sector too.

You have to compare apples to apples.


How do you figure?

It was in your article:
Quote:
Office of Personnel Management spokeswoman Sedelta Verble, says higher pay also reflects the longevity and older age of federal workers.
People tend to stay in government service.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Pay alone isn't an indicator of anything.


Especially since the value of benefits per federal employee vs. private employee isn't accounted for here; which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Pay alone isn't an indicator of anything. Knowing what I know about such things, I'd imagine that the amount of time in those positions are much higher for government employees than private sector too.

You have to compare apples to apples.


How do you figure?

It was in your article:
Quote:
Office of Personnel Management spokeswoman Sedelta Verble, says higher pay also reflects the longevity and older age of federal workers.
People tend to stay in government service.

So what you are saying is they have better pay, benefits and job security? That just seems to strengthen the argument.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So what you are saying is they have better pay, benefits and job security? That just seems to strengthen the argument.

People in the workforce longer (more experience) typically have "better pay, benefits and job security" than people new to the workforce (less experience).

Without information comparing the average length of employment between government and private sector employees in those job categories, you can't compare pay rates.

If the average years of experience are the same, THEN you can compare the numbers, but without that info you can't. AND, since the article indicated that government workers had more experience (the longevity and older age of federal workers), it shows ... nothing, really, other than people with more experience get more.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So what you are saying is they have better pay, benefits and job security? That just seems to strengthen the argument.

People in the workforce longer (more experience) typically have "better pay, benefits and job security" than people new to the workforce (less experience).

Without information concerning the average length of employment between government and private sector employees in those job categories, you can't compare pay rates.

Looking at the jobs listed they aren't something you just hop into... I am 90% sure I can't go become a chemist, airline pilot, clergy, civil engineer, CIS Manager, Crane operator, Dentail assistant, Electrical Engineer.... etc.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So what you are saying is they have better pay, benefits and job security? That just seems to strengthen the argument.

People in the workforce longer (more experience) typically have "better pay, benefits and job security" than people new to the workforce (less experience).

Without information concerning the average length of employment between government and private sector employees in those job categories, you can't compare pay rates.

Looking at the jobs listed they aren't something you just hop into... I am 90% sure I can't go become a chemist, airline pilot, clergy, civil engineer, CIS Manager, Crane operator, Dentail assistant, Electrical Engineer.... etc.



Are you saying you don't think folks with more experienced in those fields make more than those folks with less experience?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Are you saying you don't think folks with more experienced in those fields make more than those folks with less experience?

I am saying I don't understand what you're trying to say. Is your implication that workers shift from the private sector to government payrolls as they develop more experience?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:56 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Are you saying you don't think folks with more experienced in those fields make more than those folks with less experience?

I am saying I don't understand what you're trying to say. Is your implication that workers shift from the private sector to government payrolls as they develop more experience?

I'm saying that I believe the average years of experience for folks in the majority of categories compared would be greater for government workers than for those in the private sector.

That shifts the comparison from being "government v. private sector" to more of a "more experience v. less experience" comparison.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:04 pm 
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Unless the assumption is that as people get older they migrate to government jobs, it should be an equal increase.

What wasn't said, and the crux of the matter, is that government employees are generally granted mandatory annual pay increases, where as in the private sector, pay raises tend to follow the economy.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:16 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Unless the assumption is that as people get older they migrate to government jobs, it should be an equal increase.
Not when they explicitly include the information that "higher pay also reflects the longevity and older age of federal workers" in the article, then it's pretty much "more experience v. less experience".

The only assumption needed for that conclusion is that "longevity" is synonymous to "experience" in relation to specific career categories, and looking at a dictionary, I think that's a safe assumption.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:41 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Unless the assumption is that as people get older they migrate to government jobs, it should be an equal increase.
Not when they explicitly include the information that "higher pay also reflects the longevity and older age of federal workers" in the article, then it's pretty much "more experience v. less experience".

The only assumption needed for that conclusion is that "longevity" is synonymous to "experience" in relation to specific career categories, and looking at a dictionary, I think that's a safe assumption.

That would be fine, if it wasn't for the fact the statement doesn't make any sense, unless there is a demonstrable tendency for workers to migrate to public employment as they gain experience. Otherwise, its a hollow defense that should be immediately recognized as crap and disregarded. Government workers don't have any special method of gaining extra experience over a period of time compared to private workers for the same time period.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Of course they've been there longer. Do you know how hard it is to fire a government worker?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:58 pm 
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At what range?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
At what range?


I dunno, less than a couple of hundred yards or so?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
That would be fine, if it wasn't for the fact the statement doesn't make any sense, unless there is a demonstrable tendency for workers to migrate to public employment as they gain experience. Otherwise, its a hollow defense that should be immediately recognized as crap and disregarded. Government workers don't have any special method of gaining extra experience over a period of time compared to private workers for the same time period.


They identified these criteria:
government workers, higher paid, older, greater longevity in their position.

So, by inference and explicit depiction, here's the other data set:
private sector, less pay, younger, less longevity in their position.

A truth table comparing the two:
government workers, higher paid, older, greater longevity in their position.
private sector, less pay, younger, less longevity in their position.


Now, compare THESE data sets, identical to the first except for employer status:

higher paid, older, greater longevity in their position.
less pay, younger, less longevity in their position.

IF both the first and second comparisons are considered true, then employer status is irrelevant.

To identify if employer status weighs the result you have to eliminate differences in age and longevity from the data sets and re-examine the statistics on pay within the new constraints.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:32 pm 
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For a guy so quick to post hard data points, and claim it as a character trait, there seems to be an awful lot of speculation presented as fact in your argument, Taskiss. Perhaps it's because the numbers don't agree with you this time?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:48 pm 
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We'd have to see a stat for "average time in position" to make those sorts of comparisons.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:59 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
there seems to be an awful lot of speculation presented as fact in your argument, Taskiss.


How is he speculating? He's simply pointing out that the comparison presented in the article is flawed because it fails to control for a relevant factor - the greater seniority (i.e. longevity in their positions) of federal employees. I suppose it's "speculation" for him to assume that greater seniority is associated with higher pay, but that's a pretty legit assumption and one that I think can be granted as true.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:01 pm 
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But still though, I would think that the average seniority of a particular government employee isn't *that* much of a difference maker, and as Hopwin said:

Quote:
So what you are saying is they have better pay, benefits and job security? That just seems to strengthen the argument.


The intangibles strengthen the argument that Government workers are *far* better off than workers in the Private Sector.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:03 pm 
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In my field (civil engineering), the average federal worker does the following: graduates, works in the private sector for at least 5 years, works in local government, then moves to federal. Most people in federal are older, more experienced, and work on broader projects than private industry. My average experience in this division is about 7 years. It's over 20 at the last federal office I went into. I would expect a huge difference in average pay. For similar jobs, my division director vs their department director, my boss makes much more.


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