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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Opinion piece from Wall Street Journal about additional "components" that could be pushed through with the reconciliation of Obamacare.

For those that don't want to read it there:

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Everyone knows Democrats are planning to use the budget reconciliation process to get ObamaCare through the Senate. Less well known is that Democrats are plotting add-ons to that bill to get other liberal priorities enacted—programs that could never attract 60 votes.

One of these controversial measures rewrites the Higher Education Act to ban private companies from offering federally guaranteed student loans as of this July. Congress has already passed laws in recent years discouraging private lenders from making loans without a federal guarantee. But most college financial-aid departments still want private companies to originate and service the guaranteed loans. That's because the alternative—a public option run by the Department of Education—has been distinguished by its Soviet-style customer service.

The Democratic plan is to make this public option the only option mere days before colleges send out their financial aid packages to incoming students. The House and Senate budget committees issued instructions last year to look for savings in the student-lending program, so the Democrats have prepared in advance their excuse to jam these changes through the reconciliation process.
Secretary of Education Arne Duncan portrays the changes as eliminating subsidies to private companies, but no one should misinterpret these comments to mean that taxpayers will benefit. The plan that passed the House includes $67 billion in "savings," according to a Friday estimate from the Congressional Budget Office. But the bill also has more than $77 billion in new spending.

The net loss to taxpayers isn't limited to $10 billion. After inquiries from Senator Judd Gregg (R., N.H.) and Rep. John Kline (R., Minn.) last year, CBO explained that "savings" estimates are artificially high because of government accounting rules that undercount the risks of default when the government is originating the loans, while the new spending estimates are artificially low. This could be significant. Many colleges oppose the government plan specifically because the feds don't make the same effort to prevent defaults that the private lenders do.

Taxpayers have even more reason than academics to fear the impact, in part because the public may not learn the details before this plan becomes law. Democrats aim to bring their education revolution to the floor without a committee vote or even a hearing in the Senate.

Democrats might seek to enact the bill passed by the House last summer, an even more ambitious plan sketched out in the President's 2011 budget, or some mystery meat prepared by chef Tom Harkin, who chairs the Senate education committee. So far he won't tell anyone what's on the menu, and he may not have to. The limited 20 hours of reconciliation debate will no doubt be consumed by ObamaCare, but another new entitlement could be hustled into law under cover of bloviating lawmakers.

Both the House-passed bill and the President's budget increase Pell Grants and also create automatic future increases, so individual grants will grow faster than inflation every year. Colleges will pocket the money by raising tuition, so we have yet another federal program ensuring that higher education costs continue to rise even faster than health-care spending.

Mr. Obama's budget also calls for making Pell Grants a mandatory entitlement. At least now they are subject to annual appropriation and their growth can be slowed when tax revenues fall or other priorities rate higher. Mr. Obama would prefer spending that is quite literally out of control.

"Various changes that the President proposes to the Pell Grant program would add another $0.2 trillion to the deficit between 2011 and 2020," CBO said Friday. That could turn out to be a very optimistic estimate if unemployment remains high and more people seize the educational opportunity to which they have just become entitled. Still another taxpayer trap will be sprung if the President's proposal to forgive some debt incurred by "overburdened" borrowers is included in the bill.

The federal education takeover is another example of the Democrats' willingness to use whatever tactics are necessary to advance their agenda to concentrate power in Washington—while they still can.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:44 pm 
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Holy crap....

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:47 pm 
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Sweet, brb.

*grabs diploma from the wall, wipes *** and flushes*

Did I miss anything while I was gone?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:55 pm 
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When the government loans you money, they demand a say in your future as it relates to that loan. If the TARP debacle taught us anything, it taught us that.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:11 pm 
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I'm of the opinion that the government would be making a smart move if it provided funds for higher education. More education typically results in folks paying more in taxes.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
I'm of the opinion that the government would be making a smart move if it provided funds for higher education. More education typically results in folks paying more in taxes.
U.S. already crossed the viable commodity threshold on primary degrees in the United States. More education results in people paying the same taxes at this point. Certain college diplomas will never pay for themselves at this point.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing in this legislation that prevents students or universities from using a private lender if they want to, right? So what's the big deal? Why is a government guarantee fine, but a government loan is an "omg takeover!"?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:46 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing in this legislation that prevents students or universities from using a private lender if they want to, right? So what's the big deal? Why is a government guarantee fine, but a government loan is an "omg takeover!"?


Because even if private entities wouldn't be expressly forbidden from originating loans, providing students with Subsidized Student Loans without government subsidy isn't going to happen. That just means the private organization would be forced to write off interest. What do you think the odds of that are?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:02 pm 
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Change you can belive in!

The end of Riders!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:54 pm 
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I'm seriously considering just defaulting on my student loans.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:41 pm 
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I hope any government officials who support this DO NOT get hit by a bus.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:05 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing in this legislation that prevents students or universities from using a private lender if they want to, right? So what's the big deal? Why is a government guarantee fine, but a government loan is an "omg takeover!"?

The question of whether or not the government should be in the loan business is not necessarily the biggest concern with the contents of this opinion, if they are accurate. The "big deal" to me...

1) the fact that all of this is a rider and the promise made by OBama... as someone else said, "Change we can believe in"
2) the fact that this loan program is being considered a "mandatory entitlement", and
3) how does an educational grant/loan program in any way relate to the budgetary negotiations of the health care bill?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
I'm seriously considering just defaulting on my student loans.


You can never get a government job, a security clearance, or (possibly) a federally backed mortgage.

It's a bad idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
3) how does an educational grant/loan program in any way relate to the budgetary negotiations of the health care bill?


Med school is expensive. This is where his health care "savings" are coming from. Doctors will be able to charge less since they don't have loans.

Or something.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Wow I love this op-ed. The author totally misses why (imo) a higher education has value:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/08/m ... tml?hpt=T2

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It was only by chance, and without parental or institutional guidance, that my mom enrolled in East Los Angeles College. Like many other low-income and working students, community college was her entry into higher education.

It was not until her mid-30s that she enrolled in the California State University of Los Angeles while working full time. I was in elementary school and remember going to campus with her on days that my dad was working, even during an in-class exam. This was my first exposure to a university classroom.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:47 pm 
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What do you love about that op-ed?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Yeah, I couldn't really make any coherent connections. Was I overlooking something?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Here she is lobbying for institutions to lower tuition or for more government subsidization of higher-education (with a lot of rambling about music?) so that everyone can go to college.

In the meantime she's talking about how her mother chose to go to college (didn't feel entitled, wasn't even encouraged to go), worked full-time and scrimped to pay for it and in the process shaped her daughter's life.

By pushing everyone through into the higher education system because they are entitled to it totally denigrates her mother's sacrafices.

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Will they receive support or will education become a luxury available to fewer and fewer people?


It isn't a luxury but you're damn right it should be a sacrafice.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
By pushing everyone through into the higher education system because they are entitled to it totally denigrates her mother's sacrifices.

...It isn't a luxury but you're damn right it should be a sacrifice.


Why do you think it should be a sacrifice, Hop? And why would sparing others such sacrifice denigrate that of her mother? Civil Rights activists sacrificed a great deal for the rights and advantages we now enjoy every day, but I see that as progress. (The analogy is meant to be illustrative, not equivalent, of course.)


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Apparently, Liberals in America have not learned the lessons of Open Enrollment.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:45 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Why do you think it should be a sacrifice, Hop? And why would sparing others such sacrifice denigrate that of her mother? Civil Rights activists sacrificed a great deal for the rights and advantages we now enjoy every day, but I see that as progress. (The analogy is meant to be illustrative, not equivalent, of course.)

I took him to be referring to the value of anything is most often related, and protected by, the effort required to obtain it. We currently have affordable, public education, from grades K through 12. Where does the value of that education stand? What is the current direction of value in post high school education?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:45 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
By pushing everyone through into the higher education system because they are entitled to it totally denigrates her mother's sacrifices.

...It isn't a luxury but you're damn right it should be a sacrifice.


Why do you think it should be a sacrifice, Hop? And why would sparing others such sacrifice denigrate that of her mother? Civil Rights activists sacrificed a great deal for the rights and advantages we now enjoy every day, but I see that as progress. (The analogy is meant to be illustrative, not equivalent, of course.)

Higher education is not a right, nor was it ever meant to be. Civil Rights are by definition rights.

Plus this:

Ladas wrote:
I took him to be referring to the value of anything is most often related, and protected by, the effort required to obtain it. We currently have affordable, public education, from grades K through 12. Where does the value of that education stand? What is the current direction of value in post high school education?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Apparently, Liberals in America have not learned the lessons of Open Enrollment.



Why would they learn that lesson? They have a political model that tells them what should happen, and when something doesn't follow that political model, it's simply ignored. Learning a lesson would admit to a flaw in the basic thinking.

It's not unlike the reason Mao didn't understand why he couldn't push the U.S. off the Korean penninsula. His political model told him that Americans were too few in number, and too poor at fighting to contest him, despite our vastly superior technology and firepower (estimates I have seen put the aggregate advantage in U.S. firepower for a division-sized element at 10 to 20 times that of a Chinese division at that time; mainly due to the complete lack of air and artillery support for the Chinese). He believed this because his ideology told him the U.S. soldier should be a peasent/worker of the proletariat/pesantry and unmotivated to fight for the bogeoise/landowner class. In other words, his model that was initially based ont he performance of Nationalist troops and the situation in China in their civil war he generalized to the rest of the world because it fit with his ideology.

In point of fact, China's initial successes were mainly due to criminal levels of carelessness by MacArthur, Almond, and other subordinate commanders even down to the battalion level in some cases, allowing lax discipline and horrible local security. Once Ridgeway took over, the situation improved immensely. In point of fact, units that were ably led did extremely well against the Chinese even before that, and suffered mainly from the inadequacies of flanking units. The First Marine Division is the prime example; it succeeded not only in withdrawing intact at Chosin, but mauled 4 to 6 Chinese divisions in the process.

Sorry to divert onto military history, but the mistake is repeated frequently.. not just by liberals, but it's the same basic error. Mao's commander, Marshall Peng, pointed out this error in thinking and was far more cautious. Opposing Mao's excesses eventually cost him his life. Liberals are not all that different; questioning the assumptions only gets you shouted down with accusations of some horrible moral failing, usually involving bigotry.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:18 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
By pushing everyone through into the higher education system because they are entitled to it totally denigrates her mother's sacrifices.

...It isn't a luxury but you're damn right it should be a sacrifice.


Why do you think it should be a sacrifice, Hop? And why would sparing others such sacrifice denigrate that of her mother? Civil Rights activists sacrificed a great deal for the rights and advantages we now enjoy every day, but I see that as progress. (The analogy is meant to be illustrative, not equivalent, of course.)


It really doesn't illustrate anything though, because civil rights pertain to someone being denied the right to even attempt certain things, regardless of their abilities, merit, or even ability to pay.

Education, on the other hand, is something you accomplish, and something it costs others to provide you with.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:41 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
By pushing everyone through into the higher education system because they are entitled to it totally denigrates her mother's sacrifices.

...It isn't a luxury but you're damn right it should be a sacrifice.


Why do you think it should be a sacrifice, Hop? And why would sparing others such sacrifice denigrate that of her mother? Civil Rights activists sacrificed a great deal for the rights and advantages we now enjoy every day, but I see that as progress. (The analogy is meant to be illustrative, not equivalent, of course.)


Who appreciates those rights more, the civil rights activists, or children today who have never had to sacrifice for them?


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