The Glade 4.0

Scenario: Defendant is a member of a particularly violent gang, and he is accused of participating in multiple offenses ranging from drug trafficking to aggravated assault, kidnapping, rape, and murder. There's no doubt this guy is guilty, and it's extremely likely that he'll do it all again if he's released. Unfortunately, though, all of the key evidence against him was obtained via serious violations of Constitutional protections - searches and arrests without warrants, coerced confessions, etc. - and there's no way we can use any of it in court.

First question: If the DA is able to cover up the violations and thereby obtain a conviction, do you think he should?

Second question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the use of improperly-obtained evidence at trial?

Third question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the detention of defendants we "know" are guilty and likely to re-offend, even if we can't prove it in court?

No
No
No

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yes, yes, no.

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Holy shitsnacks!

See above. I think you see where I'm going with this.



He should be working to prosecute the cops. The upstanding citizen should be released immediately.



That's really frightening.



That's even scarier.

I know you are using the terms in a manner consistent with most people's understanding, but if he hasn't been convicted yet, he isn't a criminal, and none of the rights violations you listed could be considered "criminal" rights. They are general rights of the population, and despite the actions of a few, should be protected for the majority.

Criminal rights would be those conferred to the convicted.

Good point, Ladas. Changed the thread title to be at least a little more accurate.

I can look at evidence and say "That ****'s guilty."

Presumption of innocence only applies in the courts.

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Holy shitsnacks!

The problem with the example is, as Arathain pointed out, we only "know" he's guilty because it's stipulated as a condition of the question. It's a prolem with the method of addressing the issue; how do we know that he's guilty? Well, because RD said so in framing the question.

In real life, we'd "know" he was guilty from the evidence that's left undescribed in the question. We'd also know what these unconstitutional methods were, and he'd be entitled to a hearing to determine if they were, in fact, unconstitutional, but again, here, we only know that their unconstitutional by the fiat of the question posed.

So, the answer is no, to all three.

We don't want to, becaue it would merely encourage fabrication of evidence

We don't need to because in real life it's rarely that hard to find sufficient evidence legally for violent crimes, and for nonviolent ones we can afford a lot more patience

We don't need to because, as you said, he'll do it again and we can nail him legit the next time

We don't need to because it's rarely that clear cut that evidence gathering was improper, and most of the time there's no question at all that it was proper.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Doesn't it matter if the member of the gang is protected by the Constitution? If it doesn't apply then it's irrelevant.
http://www.uscourts.gov/outreach/topics ... trager.htm

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In time, this too shall pass.

No, Yes, No.

Personally I hate people getting off on technicals.. you think the criminals will stop robbing you because he forgot to tie his shoes that morning...

Those rights exist to protect the innocent as well as the guilty. As has been pointed out before, those are not "criminal's rights." Every citizen of the United States has them, and only a complete **** idiot would want them changed. Yeah, it sucks to let scumbags go because the prosecution didn't do their job properly. It would suck even more if we allowed fake evidence to convict people, and if we allowed improperly obtained evidence to be used then we may as well not even have illegal search & seizure laws to begin with.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Can we like, insert random specific scenarios for greater effect?



Now answer the same three questions seriously.

No
No
No

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

no
no
no

The questions you ask RD are frightening to think of.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Heck No
Heck No
Heck No

Do it right or let them go.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

See I have a problem with the degree of 'improper'...

As it currently stands, scientific evidence could be discounted due to stupid mistakes. Take the oj thing for e.g. some of the blood DNA work was discounted due to the lack of gloves worn by the technician. This, if contaminated, would only point to the technician and not alter the result much (except with an additional result, the technicians).

Or if someone confesses, signs a confession but is later allowed to recant it cause they werent read their miranda rights, I say tough luck. (like you haven't heard it enough in the movies)

Considering the double jeopardy laws, some technicalities only hurt the legal system and not enhance it.

No^3

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

This.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Coerced confession could easily be taken to mean tortured into confessing which IS WHY WE HAVE A CONSTITUTION.

Is there a way to make text blink?

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There is of course a difference between tortured confession and simply forgot a step in the procedure. If you could prove an officer forgot to read the miranda rights (either video or taped communication) you have a way of proving there was no torture...

Would you say that in such a case, such technicalities aid the legal system?

Yes. Officers will "forget" a lot more frequently if that's acceptable. Reading the Miranda rights is easy, they're short and easy to memorize. Not giving them is just laziness and inattention to detail.

That said, claiming you didn't get the miranda rights because they weren't read in the exact words you heard last night on Law and Order is not an excuse to toss charges out, especially if you didn't answer any questions anyhow (that's another common misconception. Miranda rights only pertain to evidence you might give. If you say nothing, are asked nothing, or if they don't need your confession or evidence anyhow, they're irrelevent. Driving Under Suspension is like this. I never read miranda; I didn't need to ask any questions. I saw you driving, your license is suspended. All done).

Fortunately, the courts are already not in the habit of tossing out charges bcause the cops said "If you can't afford a lawyer, we'll get one for you" instead of "If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be provided for you." There's therefore no reason or need for any revision of procedure.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Slippery Slope.

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Holy shitsnacks!

In a way, the reason most everyone answers most or all "no"s to the three questions posed here is the same reason why I oppose the death penalty, even if we "know" the monster is guilty. The difference of course is both the degree of both legally proven guilt and of the severity of punishment.

No, No, No

Man, just wait a couple weeks, you're watching the guy, any one as low life as that is going to do something stupid. Hey, if its stupid enough, the other gang will take care of it for you. Kind of like this illegally taped partial conversation I was sent from an associate at the Flamingo.

"Okay Darkseige, you know this Moose is guilty of crimes against the casinos, why come to us? The Flamingo is a law-abiding civic responsible casino. We don't have anything to do with anything mob-affiliated, those are just nasty rumors by jealous competitors, no truth to them at all. Besides, he wasn't even operating here. Just go talk to Joey at the DI, explain what you know, maybe how you know it. See if Joey is interested in passing this on up, I hear Newton's broke, maybe he can curry some favor with the Wynn or something, get a deal going if he okays Joey antler-capping that Moose character.

Thanks for doing your civic duty, informing on the lowlife card-counter. We appreciate it. Here, show this down at the parlor, Frankie will make you a deal on the next inkstain, ok?"

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

No
No
No

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko