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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:45 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Those rights exist to protect the innocent as well as the guilty. As has been pointed out before, those are not "criminal's rights." Every citizen of the United States has them, and only a complete **** idiot would want them changed. Yeah, it sucks to let scumbags go because the prosecution didn't do their job properly. It would suck even more if we allowed fake evidence to convict people, and if we allowed improperly obtained evidence to be used then we may as well not even have illegal search & seizure laws to begin with.


I'd be careful with the "complete **** idiot" classification. AFAIK, most of mainland Europe answers "yes" to the second and third questions. Germany, for example, allows illegally obtained evidence to be used at trial, and obviously there is no "poisonous tree" doctrine. German convicts can also be detained indefinitely if they are deemed highly likely to re-offend. Punishment of the police officers/government officials that obtained/used the evidence illegally is seen as sufficient remedy.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:24 am 
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And thus you see one of the key differences between American and European ideology, and the reason that for the most part of the last 400 years people have left there and flocked here.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:05 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'd be careful with the "complete **** idiot" classification. AFAIK, most of mainland Europe answers "yes" to the second and third questions.
Except, if recent history proves anything, the "Complete **** Idiot" Classification certainly applies to mainland Europe.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:10 am 
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Khross wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'd be careful with the "complete **** idiot" classification. AFAIK, most of mainland Europe answers "yes" to the second and third questions.
Except, if recent history proves anything, the "Complete **** Idiot" Classification certainly applies to mainland Europe.


Damn, beat me to it.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:07 am 
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No, No and No. Emphatically.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:10 am 
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No, no, and no.

Hopwin wrote:
Is there a way to make text blink?


And no.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:41 am 
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Mookhow wrote:
No, no, and no.

Hopwin wrote:
Is there a way to make text blink?


And no.

Hop to it :D

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Mookhow wrote:
No, no, and no.

Hopwin wrote:
Is there a way to make text blink?


And no.

Hop to it :D

No.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:21 pm 
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For those that answered no, no, no - do any of your answers change if it's a non citizen, non POW? Say he's allegedly into terrorism, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, sex trafficking, or something along those lines.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Arathain, speaking for no one other than myself here:

i have issues with a noncitizen being afforded qny constitutional rights when they have been incarcerated. Not a citizen, not protected by the social contract and all that.

That said, lifetime in prison with no justice is no bueno. I would be a fan of deportation, and if the **** is caught doing terroristic activity in the future... Discreet elimination of a threat.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
For those that answered no, no, no - do any of your answers change if it's a non citizen, non POW? Say he's allegedly into terrorism, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, sex trafficking, or something along those lines.


Depends. Was he captured pursuant to national security activity, or pursuant to domestic law enforcement?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
For those that answered no, no, no - do any of your answers change if it's a non citizen, non POW? Say he's allegedly into terrorism, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, sex trafficking, or something along those lines.

It does not change my answers.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
For those that answered no, no, no - do any of your answers change if it's a non citizen, non POW? Say he's allegedly into terrorism, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, sex trafficking, or something along those lines.


Heheh, let the Europeans with their lack of protections deal with it. ;)

Otherwise, no.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
For those that answered no, no, no - do any of your answers change if it's a non citizen, non POW? Say he's allegedly into terrorism, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, sex trafficking, or something along those lines.


No.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Men like KSM and his kind are essentially enemy soldiers without a country and should be treated accordingly

Foreign nationals acussed of other crimes I believe are protected by the consitution in like manner as citizens. I could be wrong though

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
For those that answered no, no, no - do any of your answers change if it's a non citizen, non POW? Say he's allegedly into terrorism, drug smuggling, arms smuggling, sex trafficking, or something along those lines.


Yeah, that was one of my follow-up thoughts as well:

Scenario B: Defendant is a US citizen, arrested by the FBI on US soil, and is accused of planning and participating in terrorist attacks against American targets. There's no doubt this guy is guilty, and it's extremely likely that he'll do it all again if he's released. Unfortunately, though, all of the key evidence against him was obtained via serious violations of Constitutional protections - searches and arrests without warrants, coerced confessions, etc. - and there's no way we can use any of it in court.

First question: If the DA is able to cover up the violations and thereby obtain a conviction, do you think he should?

Second question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the use of improperly-obtained evidence at trial in this kind of situation?

Third question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the detention of such defendants we "know" are guilty and likely to re-offend, even if we can't prove it in court?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario C: Defendant is not a US citizen, was arrested by the FBI on US soil, and is accused of planning and participating in terrorist attacks against American targets. There's no doubt this guy is guilty, and it's extremely likely that he'll do it all again if he's released. Unfortunately, though, all of the key evidence against him was obtained via serious violations of Constitutional protections - searches and arrests without warrants, coerced confessions, etc. - and there's no way we can use any of it in court.

First question: If the prosecutor is able to cover up the violations and thereby obtain a conviction, do you think he should?

Second question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the use of improperly-obtained evidence at trial in this kind of situation?

Third question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the detention of such defendants we "know" are guilty and likely to re-offend, even if we can't prove it in court?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario D: Defendant is a US citizen, captured by US troops or CIA operatives on foreign soil, and is accused of planning and participating in terrorist attacks against American targets. There's no doubt this guy is guilty, and it's extremely likely that he'll do it all again if he's released. Unfortunately, though, all of the key evidence against him was obtained via serious violations of Constitutional protections - searches and arrests without warrants, coerced confessions, etc. - and there's no way we can use any of it in court.

First question: If the DA is able to cover up the violations and thereby obtain a conviction, do you think he should?

Second question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the use of improperly-obtained evidence at trial in this kind of situation?

Third question: Do you think we should change our legal/Constitutional approach to allow the detention of such defendants we "know" are guilty and likely to re-offend, even if we can't prove it in court?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario E: Defendant is not a US citizen, was captured by US troops or CIA operatives on foreign soil, and is accused of planning and participating in terrorist attacks against American targets. There's no doubt this guy is guilty, and it's extremely likely that he'll do it all again if he's released. Unfortunately, though, all of the key evidence against him was obtained via serious violations of Constitutional standards - searches and arrests without warrants, coerced confessions, etc. - and there's no way we can use any of it in court.

First question: If the prosecutor is able to cover up the violations and thereby obtain a conviction, do you think he should?

Second question: Do you think we should allow the use of improperly-obtained evidence at trial in this kind of situation?

Third question: Do you think we should allow the detention of such defendants we "know" are guilty and likely to re-offend, even if we can't prove it in court?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:16 pm 
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We're not doing your homework for you RD :p /tease

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:19 pm 
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Heh. Come on, please? I'll totally make it up to you. You can borrow my notes from Civ Pro if you want!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:21 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Heh. Come on, please? I'll totally make it up to you. You can borrow my notes from Civ Pro if you want!


Nah man, hook me up with your sister and we'll talk /wink

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Military tribunals have been found to be appropriate in many of those scenarios, RD, where they're not, my answers remain - no.

Dude, have you seen his sister?

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:27 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Dude, have you seen his sister?


Last I saw her, she was gettin' up off your pops!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Your scenarios involving illegally obtaining evidence break down in C and D. For example, there's no such thing as an "illegal search" by troops on foriegn soil. Warrants and the like are not needed to conduct military operations. If you happen to be in a hotel in Baghdad making bombs when someone kicks in the door without a warrant.. well, tough ****. Of course, in that case you're far more likely to end up in front of an Iraqi court, and they don't necessarily have the same views on what is ok in the first place.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:55 pm 
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1,2,3 Already demand Constitutional protections apply either by virtue of citizenship or having taken place in a state or territory where the Constitution is law.

4 - Our laws do not apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:21 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Dude, have you seen his sister?


Last I saw her, she was gettin' up off your pops!


Wow! That's worse than I heard, he's been dead for eight years. :shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:47 pm 
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Well, to be honest, my sister ain't no prize either. ;)


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