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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:01 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Giving only landowners the vote could work, but you would have to have some kind of equality provisions to prevent abuses, for example laws that state anyone not enfranchised has to pay 25% extra income tax, or triples prison sentences for the disenfranchised, or other things of that nature.

Wait, what? Is this sarcasm?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:02 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Giving only landowners the vote could work, but you would have to have some kind of equality provisions to prevent abuses, for example laws that state anyone not enfranchised has to pay 25% extra income tax, or triples prison sentences for the disenfranchised, or other things of that nature.


Like... say... with some sort of law... maybe a high law... yeah... a High Law of the Land... we could call it something... like maybe a... constitution... and the ruling body will have to use it as a baseline for all the things they can, and can't do...

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:07 am 
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No, it's not sarcasm. You really expect the Constitution to protect against this? Seriously? First, put aside for a second that the enfranchised could simply amend it to discriminate against the disenfranchised as much as they damn well please. Then realize that under the current Constitution, we've passed punitive taxes on executives for earning too much money and have a legal system that gives black people prison sentences that are 3-4 times longer than the sentences given to whites and asians for the same crimes.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:09 am 
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Our current constitution is a piece of **** that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

It needs to be rewritten.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:29 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
No, it's not sarcasm. You really expect the Constitution to protect against this? Seriously? First, put aside for a second that the enfranchised could simply amend it to discriminate against the disenfranchised as much as they damn well please. Then realize that under the current Constitution, we've passed punitive taxes on executives for earning too much money and have a legal system that gives black people prison sentences that are 3-4 times longer than the sentences given to whites and asians for the same crimes.

I was just trying to understand your statement, which was a bit of sarcasm directed at how things currently operate.

The question that I believe should be asked is who should have a say, and in what topics?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:46 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Our current constitution is a piece of **** that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

It needs to be rewritten.

Oh my God, imagine how long it would be if rewritten by the "great" minds and leaders of today :shock: I'd say 20,000 page bare minimum... per article.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:02 pm 
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Why don't we start a glade constitutional convention where we write up a new Constitution for the US? We get a thread for the people considered writers and then agree on the rules of passing? Could be a fun exercise and give us a glimpse of what the Founders actually went through.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Why don't we start a glade constitutional convention where we write up a new Constitution for the US? We get a thread for the people considered writers and then agree on the rules of passing? Could be a fun exercise and give us a glimpse of what the Founders actually went through.

That would be most interesting.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:54 am 
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What makes you more fit to rule than me? Simply because I choose to rent because of my situation?

This contry was founded on the concept on of No taxation without representation. Yes it's taking us a couple of centuries to realize "Yes that applies to those people who I feel are inferior to me too. ". However it is what made us once great

This is the climate where a college dropout can work smart and become the riches man on the planet, and his partner the second.

This is the concept that drove a bunch a ragtag men too unimportant to vote to defeat the greatest army of their age.

I could go on all day if needed

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:59 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
This is the concept that drove a bunch a ragtag men too unimportant to vote to defeat the greatest army of their age.
You should check up on your history. That said, the Founders knew universal suffrage was problematic. The issues of universal suffrage are neither knew nor unknown.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:01 am 
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Khross wrote:
Rorinthas wrote:
This is the concept that drove a bunch a ragtag men too unimportant to vote to defeat the greatest army of their age.
You should check up on your history. That said, the Founders knew universal suffrage was problematic. The issues of universal suffrage are neither knew nor unknown.

DAMN LITERACY!

You gotta admit, it was funny ;)

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Diamondeye:

Literacy is a measure of trained reasoning, particularly inference and deduction. There are sentences I could write that while perfectly intelligible, you would now understand. I'm absolutely certain that the reverse is true as well. Literacy is not the ability to recognize words as they appear in written format. It is goes far beyond that.

LAUGH, DAMN YOU!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:26 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
What makes you more fit to rule than me? Simply because I choose to rent because of my situation?

This contry was founded on the concept on of No taxation without representation. Yes it's taking us a couple of centuries to realize "Yes that applies to those people who I feel are inferior to me too. ". However it is what made us once great

This is the climate where a college dropout can work smart and become the riches man on the planet, and his partner the second.

This is the concept that drove a bunch a ragtag men too unimportant to vote to defeat the greatest army of their age.

I could go on all day if needed


I should point out that the British Army, while highly professional, was not the greatest army of its day. That title should probably go to the Prussian Army, although several others could contend for it as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:45 am 
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Taskiss:

Yup, but that's what happens when I change my thought mid sentence and forget to correct myself.

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Corolinth wrote:
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:04 am 
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Yes Both universal and limited sufferage are problematic. However I feel that the great proble with limited sufferage is the establishment of a ruling class. Because of their sin natue such a class will increase it's power over its "serfs", voting itsself more privilages and powers.
This will only lead to another revolution and there is no guarentee we'll end up with a republic that cares about individual rights.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:13 am 
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I'm okay with no taxation without representation. But we need to be way more wary of the "representation without taxation" situation we've dug ourselves into, now, too. It's the primary reason we can't shed these preposterous entitlement obligations we've allowed to accumulate, and, indeed, why they get even more burdensome as time goes on.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:30 am 
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There are ways to fix that without creating a peerage. Also I've never met someone who doesn't pay any taxes at all. Maybe some who get more out than they pay in though

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:03 pm 
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Rorinthas:

There's already a ruling class in the United States.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
There are ways to fix that without creating a peerage. Also I've never met someone who doesn't pay any taxes at all. Maybe some who get more out than they pay in though

The EIC is the biggest modern offender. There are statistics indicating that the proportion of the voting population with a tax burden equal to or less than (the government writes them a check at tax time in excess of their withholding) zero is approaching (or maybe has passed) 45%.

Then, of course, there's also the issue of local government levels where the taxes are predominantly or entirely property taxes, which also extends representation without taxation.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Payroll taxes change the equation, but yeah, combined effective tax rates are basically a bell curve in the US now, with people whose incomes are in the high five-figure to low six-figure range paying the highest overall rates. The poor and the rich have lower combined effective rates, with some approaching zero.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Taskiss:

Yup, but that's what happens when I change my thought mid sentence and forget to correct myself.

I know, but the timing was SO perfect to tweak you!

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Khross I can circumvent your property rule by selling square inches of real estate, square centimeters, or whatever fine portion I or any other person would wish to in order to grant voting rights.

Or I could form a communal ownership agreement with anyone who signs up on a website and pays a yearly "maintenance" fee.

Thus what occurs now, that only those interested in voting enough to take a bit of their time and money will vote.

Anyone being taxed (as in pays out more than they receive) must be able to vote. I'd likely agree that anyone being ruled under law should be able to vote.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Is this even possible? Can Pelosi really pass the bill by only voting on the amendments to it?


The democrats can use reconciliation to pass this legislation just as BOTH parties have used it in the past to pass contentious legislation. Personally, I don't like it's use at all, but if the rule is there I can't fathom why people think that politicians won't use every loophole available to them to advance their agendas.

Some of the loudest Republican opponents to reconciliation were unwavering supporters of it back when they were passing the Bush tax cuts. Reps also used the same process they are defaming now to pass Medicare Part C, and attempted (but were either vetoed or failed to pass) to modify Welfare and Medicare provisions.

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When Republicans took power in 1995, they soon lost their aversion to self-executing rules [a device used by the House Rules Committee to automatically attach amendments to bills on the floor without a separate debate or vote] and proceeded to set new records under Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.). There were 38 and 52 self-executing rules in the 104th and 105th Congresses (1995-1998), making up 25 percent and 35 percent of all rules, respectively. Under Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) there were 40, 42 and 30 self-executing rules in the 106th, 107th and 108th Congresses (22 percent, 37 percent and 22 percent, respectively). Thus far in the 109th Congress, self-executing rules make up about 16 percent of all rules.


Remember, it's only dirty politics when the other side is doing it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Khross I can circumvent your property rule by selling square inches of real estate, square centimeters, or whatever fine portion I or any other person would wish to in order to grant voting rights.

No, there are zoning laws.

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Or I could form a communal ownership agreement with anyone who signs up on a website and pays a yearly "maintenance" fee.

In what state can you have a communal ownership?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:35 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
In what state can you have a communal ownership?

Most, I'd imagine. At least that's the "time-share" advertisement...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:38 pm 
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You can easily stop those circumventions by simply specifying a modest minimum square area. If you "time-share" or whatever, you only get a proportion of the square footage proportional to your time segment.

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