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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:13 am 
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Thanks, I feel better.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:33 am 
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That's a great point, DE. Liberals: "Now that that prick is out of office, let's request this. And this, and this."


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:35 am 
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Except there were fewer requests.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Except there were fewer requests.


That is probably the briefest, most eloquent, and most completely thorough destruction of any post I've ever made on any board.

Congratulations.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
47,395 in 12 months for Bush (That Secretive Liar!)
70,779 in 9 months for Obama (The Champion of Transparency!)

Now that I think about it, I guess there's really no surprises here.

PDF WARNING:
http://www.sunshineingovernment.org/sta ... encies.pdf


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http://www.sunshineingovernment.org/index.php?cat=213
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FOIA in 2009: Waiting for Freedom of Information Less, Getting More

The 29 largest agencies responsible for handling 97 percent of all federal FOIA requests reported more releases, faster responses overall, but longer waits for agencies to resolve disputes. Appeals resulted in more disclosures. Among dozens of smaller agencies we also analyzed, public interest in information about banking and oversight of the financial sector drove up requests to the FDIC and Federal Reserve; neither could keep up.

This analysis by the Sunshine in Government Initiative compares what 29 agencies reported in 2009 and 2008 and shows slow but significant improvements in the way agencies handle implement the country's main open government law and paints a unique portrait of the federal government's responses to FOIA requests.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Sunshine and Shadows:The Clear Obama Message for Freedom of Information Meets Mixed Results

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Washington, DC, March 15, 2010 - Despite President Barack Obama's and Attorney General Eric Holder's 2009 memoranda calling for reform in government agencies' administration of the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), the latest government-wide FOIA Audit released today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University found:

Ancient requests--as old as 18 years--still persist in the FOIA system.
A minority of agencies have responded to the Obama and Holder Memos with concrete changes in their FOIA practices.
Only four out of 28 agencies reporting--including Holder's own Justice Department--show releases up and denials down under the FOIA.
The Audit, which is based on data obtained from government agencies through FOIA requests filed by the Archive in September 2009, found that federal agencies had a wide range of responses to the Obama and Holder Memos. Some agencies (13 out of 90) implemented concrete changes in practice as a result of the memos; some (14 out of 90) have made changes in staff training; and still others (11 out of 90) have merely circulated and discussed the memos. The remaining agencies (52) either told the Archive that they have no records that demonstrate how they implemented the Obama and Holder Memos or did not respond at all to the FOIA request.

The report also shows several agencies have severe backlogs in processing FOIA requests, with some requests as old as 18 years. Presidential Libraries are facing some of the greatest challenges processing old requests--the libraries for Presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton all have requests pending from the first year they began accepting records requests from the public.

National Security Archive Director Tom Blanton said the Audit makes it clear that too many government agencies are falling short of the goals set out by President Obama. "It is time for a 'No FOIA Request Left Behind' initiative," Blanton said.

Meredith Fuchs, the Archive's General Counsel, said the Audit shows the Obama Administration and federal agencies have their work cut out for them on the transparency front. "One year is too early to render a final judgment on how far President Obama can move the government toward openness, but this Audit finds that much more pressure and leadership will be necessary, both inside and outside the government," Fuchs said.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Vindicarre, that report seems to contradict your original post.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:01 pm 
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How so?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:06 pm 
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"PROMISES, PROMISES: Records not so open with Obama" it asserted.

The evidence in your post above concerning openness is pretty clearly in Obama's favor.

Four out of 28 agencies reporting show releases up and denials down

13 out of 90 implemented concrete changes in practice

14 out of 90 have made changes in staff training

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Huh, I would have thought that 24 out of 28 agencies having the same or worse release rates would be right in line with the AP's findings. I see it as an affirmation of DE's statements regarding the inadequacy of the implementation of Obama's direct orders even a year later.
You may see it as a contradiction, I don't - it seems like lip service.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:32 pm 
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I agree, there's not a huge improvement and may not be any improvement at all, all things consdered. The original post insinuated the situation was twice as bad under Obama as the previous year under Bush, and I don't see any indication that such an assertion is clearly supported.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:15 pm 
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To be perfectly honest, there's a reason for that. In terms of internal policy, this is how the military tends to operate, and since the government is an even bigger organization it tends to behave the same way. The President issued a directive through an appropriate staff element (the Attorney General) and therefore that staff element is one of the more compliant ones.

However, the farther you get from the issuing authority (In this case the President) the more directives there tend to be just because of interveneing headquarters and there is just a great deal of "noise". People at lower levels just don't necessarily give a **** because to a lot of them it's just one more directive among many, and it's an annoying one, like many directives from higher.

When you issue a change in policy, you have to put "command emphasis" on it to make it stick. There's simply not enough time and effort to go around and make every standard important all the time, because people are trying to get work done. If you really want something changed, you cannot just say "lets cmake this change" and expect people to suddenly care about it unless it pertains specifically to something to do with them.

That's what Obama hasn't done. He hasn't made it clear that it will be the way he wants it, so it isn't. This was the concern about his ability to be in charge during the election: he really does not understand how.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
he really does not understand how.
Lack of experience isn't the same as lack of intent. I think he really wanted to make a difference, but just didn't know the turning radius of this particular aircraft carrier.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
he really does not understand how.
Lack of experience isn't the same as lack of intent. I think he really wanted to make a difference, but just didn't know the turning radius of this particular aircraft carrier.


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That's what I was saying.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
That's what I was saying.

Not all were agreeing...

You liked the picture though, didn't you.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That's what I was saying.

Not all were agreeing...

You liked the picture though, didn't you.


I don't know. I only got the red x.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
That's what I was saying.

Not all were agreeing...

You liked the picture though, didn't you.


I don't know. I only got the red x.

Oh, man, you gotta see it! Military pron! It'll get a bulge in the ol' forecastle, let me tell you!

http://forums.howwhatwhy.com/download.php?Number=249513

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Oh, man, you gotta see it! Military pron! It'll get a bulge in the ol' forecastle, let me tell you!

http://forums.howwhatwhy.com/download.php?Number=249513


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I have too much free time.

inspiration:
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Last edited by Müs on Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:16 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I don't know. I only got the red x.

Oh, man, you gotta see it! Military pron! It'll get a bulge in the ol' forecastle, let me tell you!

http://forums.howwhatwhy.com/download.php?Number=249513


Access Forbidden Error.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I don't know. I only got the red x.

Oh, man, you gotta see it! Military pron! It'll get a bulge in the ol' forecastle, let me tell you!

http://forums.howwhatwhy.com/download.php?Number=249513


Access Forbidden Error.


See post above yours. ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:27 pm 
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I had more in mind empty campaign promises than malfeasance, myself... though DE's bureaucracy idea is the boring, more likely alternative. :p

I simply imagine a scenario wherein he makes these promises from behind a campaign podium in Illinois, then sees things a bit differently when he's behind the desk in the Oval Office. It's easy to make promises, and I'll even go so far as to say I believe he meant them at the time. But he could not have really known then what he does now, and I'm inclined to believe that is at least part of the reason for his falling through on that promise.

Maybe it's just that he had no idea of the degree of bureaucracy involved in actually effecting a very transparent government? I don't know if that is to his credit (one well-meaning man unable to stop the machine) or not (he's the friggin' head of the Executive Office -- make it happen!)


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:44 pm 
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Noggel wrote:
I had more in mind empty campaign promises than malfeasance, myself... though DE's bureaucracy idea is the boring, more likely alternative. :p

I simply imagine a scenario wherein he makes these promises from behind a campaign podium in Illinois, then sees things a bit differently when he's behind the desk in the Oval Office. It's easy to make promises, and I'll even go so far as to say I believe he meant them at the time. But he could not have really known then what he does now, and I'm inclined to believe that is at least part of the reason for his falling through on that promise.

Maybe it's just that he had no idea of the degree of bureaucracy involved in actually effecting a very transparent government? I don't know if that is to his credit (one well-meaning man unable to stop the machine) or not (he's the friggin' head of the Executive Office -- make it happen!)


One of the things pointed out during the campaign is that he's had no experience being in charge of or managing anything except... his campaign, and his Senatorial staff.

When you're dealing with anything really big there are all kinds of complications that come up that just can't be seen from outside. Like the sorts of problems designing aircraft carriers that Monty thinks China won't have, despite a lack of experience, because they're "just as smart as us." That's got nothing to do with it. Big things are complicated and take experience to do or run well.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Monty has never run a business, or invested himself in anything. Except maybe sword fighting, but for some reason he can't make the connection.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:51 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Monty has never run a business, or invested himself in anything. Except maybe sword fighting, but for some reason he can't make the connection.


No he hasn't, and he's also never worked on a big complicated piece of machinery like a warship.

In that regard he's hardly unique in thinking there's some simple solution to everything, and that a sufficiently smart person can handle anything regardless of experience. We see people all the time, even on this board saying "just do X and problem Y will be solved" when if it were really that easy, problem Y would have been solved long ago.

Obama is no different. Saying you're going to make government "more transparent" is one thing. Making it that way is another altogether, and if you have no experience being in charge of things, it's going to be hard.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:55 pm 
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Agreed. However I never believed him in the first place. I think he knew better, but had no real intentions of doing anything about it anyway. It's a great sound-bite on the campaign trail, and it's a difficult and totally subjective thing to measure.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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