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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:48 am 
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If a single payer system is adopted in the US, will that change your view of others lifestyle choices?

The below blog post starts with a story of a 77 year old doctor who was sued by a patient because he "poked her thigh and told her she is fat". From there he goes on to suggest that the real reason many are so against a socialized system of health care is that they are forced to pay for others choices.

http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010/03/ ... al-reason/

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A built-in false assumption with the health-care debate is that sickness is always no-fault sickness. It’s never socially acceptable to assign blame for people’s medical problems — especially blame on the patient.

But I’m not afraid to confess that I’m a judgmental person. And I’m pretty confident that most Americans who oppose socialized medicine share this same judgment: that some people are partly or entirely to blame for their unwellness.

I’m perfectly willing to provide subsidized health care to people who are suffering due to no fault of their own. But in those cases — which, unfortunately, constitute perhaps a majority of all cases — where the unwellness is a consequence of the patient’s own misdeeds, bad habits, or stupid choices, I feel a deep-seated resentment that the rest of us should pick up the tab to fix medical problems that never should have happened in the first place.

I’m speaking specifically of medical problems caused by:

• Obesity
• Cigarette smoking
• Alcohol abuse
• Reckless behavior
• Criminal activity
• Unprotected promiscuous sex
• Use of illicit drugs
• Cultural traditions
• Bad diets

Now, I really don’t care if you overeat, smoke like a chimney, hump like a bunny or forget to lock the safety mechanism on your pistol as you jam it in your waistband. Fine by me. And as a laissez-faire social-libertarian live-and-let-live kind of person, I would never under normal circumstances condemn anyone for any of the behaviors listed above. That is: Until the bill for your stupidity shows up in my mailbox. Then suddenly, I’m forced to care about what you do, because I’m being forced to pay for the consequences.

What I don’t like about the very concept of universal health care is that it compels me to become my brother’s keeper and insert myself into the moral decisions of his life. I’d rather grant each person maximum freedom. I’d prefer to let people make whatever choices they want, however stupid or dangerous I may deem those choices to be. Just so long as you take responsibility for your actions, and you reap the consequences and pay for them yourself — hey, be as foolish or hedonistic or selfish or thoughtless as you like. Not my business.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:09 am 
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Considering that most people are insured, you already have to pay for their lifestyle choices.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:13 am 
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I'd rather include people ill and broken because of their lifestyle choices, than start or continue a precedent of excluding people for their lifestyle choices.

He chose to be a security guard. He chose to go to work and do his rounds. He chose to try and stop the guy breaking into the car, He chose to get shot. If he wanted insurance he should have bought some. Why waste valuable ventilator time on him, it will take six months for him to heal enough to get him off it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:45 am 
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One of the main reasons I'm against the government being involved in health care is that it will inevitably lead to the government interfering in our person lives. No longer will we be able to say "What I do with my own body is my own business," as others will be able to respond "but it is other peoples' business because they pay for your medical care." Next thing you know the government will be trying to regulate our lifestyles to make them more "healthy."

Of course, it doesn't help that the government has an absolutely terrible record when it comes to determining what is healthy and what isn't (to the point that it's usually the opposite).


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:11 pm 
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This all falls into the trend though. For instance banning trans fats or smoking. Social engineering limiting choice "for your own good".

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Amanar wrote:
One of the main reasons I'm against the government being involved in health care is that it will inevitably lead to the government interfering in our person lives. No longer will we be able to say "What I do with my own body is my own business," as others will be able to respond "but it is other peoples' business because they pay for your medical care." Next thing you know the government will be trying to regulate our lifestyles to make them more "healthy."

Of course, it doesn't help that the government has an absolutely terrible record when it comes to determining what is healthy and what isn't (to the point that it's usually the opposite).


Yeah, but socialized medicine doesn't change anything in this regard. You're already paying for the medical care of others.

Regulating behavior is sadly the only way to reconcile health care costs. The other way is to just let people with no money die, and we know that's not going to happen.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:53 pm 
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If the bill winds up being defeated because of hold-outs by pro-life Democrats, it will be richest, deepest irony I think I'll have ever seen in politics. Oh, you mean you don't like the public meddling in your medical decisions? Hmm, maybe you should have thought of that before putting the public in charge of it. But then, we're supposed to just ignore that because we all know that this bill won't put the public or the government between you and your doctor.

The short-sightedness of the people pushing for this bill is truly unbelievable.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:51 pm 
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It's all chaotic at this point but I have a sinking feeling it will pass today. Democrats seem to have decided they will just do it and weather the consequences.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Stupak still won't support it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:55 pm 
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New, from Drudge:

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FLASH: Senate Republicans found a provision in the new House health care bill that likely makes it ineligible for expedited 'reconciliation' procedures in the Senate. Dems refused to meet with GOP and Parliamentarian.... Developing....

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:56 pm 
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He will

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34767.html

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The White House and anti-abortion Democrats have reached an agreement to defusethe controversy over abortion in the health reform bill – planning a series of steps that will secure the support of Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) and other Democrats to give party leaders the votes they need to pass reform, sources tell POLITICO.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/03 ... z0iqLAI51O

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:02 pm 
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And I don't know if they were liberal plants or not, used to manufacture a useful image, but assuming they weren't I hate it when the real racists and bigots jump out and mingle with those of us whom actually oppose policy. I hate it because it compells me to defend people who's level of corruption and incompetence as social law makers I rail against daily on what are hopefully more intellectual grounds. I found myself defending Barney Frank today, and it nearly made me ill.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Others flipping too. Sounds done to me:

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/88143 ... l-vote-yes

Quote:
Democrats have reached a deal on an executive order on abortion that could hand them a victory on healthcare.

"Eight or nine" Democrats, including Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.), will announce the deal at a 4 p.m. press conference, according to an anti-abortion Democrat.

"We've changed [our votes]," said Rep. Steve Driehaus (D-Ohio).

Driehaus said he's seen the executive order and can now vote for the healthcare bill. He said Stupak has signed off, as well.

Driehaus made his remarks just a few moments ago in the Speaker's Lobby. He said the group of "eight or nine" Democrats -- including Stupak -- who had been withholding their votes plans to announce the deal at 4 p.m. in the House Radio/TV gallery.


Not to sound too negative but I hold very little hope for repeal as well.

Rynar you mean the report of racist/homophobic comments from protesters? Yeah they mix into all kinds of rallies. Not much you can do about them I think.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:09 pm 
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No, there isn't. Nor should you, free speech being what it is and all. It just becomes frustrating sometimes, and I think it's important to talk about so that true conservatives don't become guilty by association

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
And I don't know if they were liberal plants or not, used to manufacture a useful image, but assuming they weren't I hate it when the real racists and bigots jump out and mingle with those of us whom actually oppose policy. I hate it because it compells me to defend people who's level of corruption and incompetence as social law makers I rail against daily on what are hopefully more intellectual grounds. I found myself defending Barney Frank today, and it nearly made me ill.


Out of morbid curiosity, against what were you defending him?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Someone who hated him because he was gay, and attributed everything he has done in congress to "the gay agenda". Loud guy sitting two bar stools down from me at a local higher end place where we discuss politics all the time.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:01 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Someone who hated him because he was gay, and attributed everything he has done in congress to "the gay agenda". Loud guy sitting two bar stools down from me at a local higher end place where we discuss politics all the time.


Right. Because obviously Allowing Fannie and Freddy to run hog wild over the financial system has something to do with being gay. What brilliance!

I'm sort of surprised you took the time.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:04 pm 
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He was loud, and obnoxious, and ruining the quality of another conversation going on between me and a few other patrons. Don't get between me and my enjoyment of good IPA's and good company. :)

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:18 pm 
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I'll just content myself with the knowledge that you didn't use the IPA to sow him the error of his ways.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:25 pm 
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What I love is that when a Republican representative pointed out that the only thing they're guaranteed to get if they pass the Senate bill is the Senate bill, **** Slaughter shouts out "No, you're wrong!"

/facepalm

Just because it's inconvenient to point out the truth doesn't make it untrue, ya *****.

And, of course, we have Obama promising an executive order to put abortion off-limits. *sigh* So conflicted.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:53 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I'll just content myself with the knowledge that you didn't use the IPA to sow him the error of his ways.


I'm not sure how you would use India Pale Ale as a seed spreader, and would you want to reap something from that seed anyway? Fertilizer perhaps, but not as seed stock.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:57 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I'll just content myself with the knowledge that you didn't use the IPA to sow him the error of his ways.


I'm not sure how you would use India Pale Ale as a seed spreader, and would you want to reap something from that seed anyway? Fertilizer perhaps, but not as seed stock.


Think about the fact that he's in a bar and what the IPA is probably contained in while he drinks it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:02 pm 
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I've never seen anyone be convinced of the wrongness of someone's opinion via beatdown. It really wasn't for the benefit of the moron, it was for the benefit of those within earshot, who, in New England, might otherwise assume that he was delivering a standard conservative argument. Far better to leave him looking like the fool he is, while taking the opportunity to demonstrate the merit and superiority of intellectual conservatism.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:50 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
I've never seen anyone be convinced of the wrongness of someone's opinion via beatdown. It really wasn't for the benefit of the moron, it was for the benefit of those within earshot, who, in New England, might otherwise assume that he was delivering a standard conservative argument. Far better to leave him looking like the fool he is, while taking the opportunity to demonstrate the merit and superiority of intellectual conservatism.


Hence my contentedness.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:12 pm 
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I'm well aware of our friend Rynar's ability to physically defend himself if he needs to, and happy he chooses to do an intellectual beat down over the physical one.

I was actually commenting on one of your few Typos DE, show/sow trying to make it funny. Didn't do so well I guess.

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