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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:38 pm 
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Looks like we're gonna have "universal" health care. /sigh

We can all thank the Republicans.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:47 pm 
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Allow me to add that Stupak is a tool, imo.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:48 pm 
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The bill passed in a 219-212 vote after more than a year of bitter partisan debate. All 178 Republicans opposed it, along with 34 Democrats.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:57 pm 
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Once they are removed from office, they will understand the consequences of what they have done. Also, the fight isn't over yet. There is more fun to be had in the Senate, not to mention what I have to imagine is nothing short of a metric **** of well written legal challenges. We're likely to see some aspect of this in the High Court.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:01 pm 
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Yes, but it's funny how one thing follows another, and a present situation can be traced back a bit. When the Republicans had Congress, instead of being the party of fiscal restraint, they decided (with help from Bush) to spend money like drunken sailors. Then to compound their error, they nominate for president a man almost certain to lose from day one.

Had the Republicans held on to the principle of fiscal restraint, they might not have lost control of Congress. With a better nominee, they might not have lost the WH.

So, imo, this debacle lies at the doorstep of the Republican party.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:04 pm 
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It lies directly at the feet of all of them. Perverting our system of law to bring us to this point.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:33 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Amanar wrote:
One of the main reasons I'm against the government being involved in health care is that it will inevitably lead to the government interfering in our person lives. No longer will we be able to say "What I do with my own body is my own business," as others will be able to respond "but it is other peoples' business because they pay for your medical care." Next thing you know the government will be trying to regulate our lifestyles to make them more "healthy."

Of course, it doesn't help that the government has an absolutely terrible record when it comes to determining what is healthy and what isn't (to the point that it's usually the opposite).


Yeah, but socialized medicine doesn't change anything in this regard. You're already paying for the medical care of others.

Regulating behavior is sadly the only way to reconcile health care costs. The other way is to just let people with no money die, and we know that's not going to happen.



Yes it does change it, it is now impossible to avoid as it is mandatory. Insurance agreements are voluntary contracts. This is not (neither were other programs or the mandates on ER's but it was easier to avoid).

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:42 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Regulating behavior is sadly the only way to reconcile health care costs. The other way is to just let people with no money die, and we know that's not going to happen.


Not the only way, no. True one way is to have government take over healthcare and then dictate what actions are acceptable. That's the big change here, regardless of if we were already paying for it indirectly or not. Now government will control it and be able to dictate these things and decide how the finite amount of care is rationed.

Another way, would be to allow people to be consumers direct of healthcare again. Let them see the costs, pay for them directly. That alone will make things more efficient and reduce wasteful consumption. People are much more careful with their own money. On top of that you'll see more competition and lowered costs.

It's been noted over and over that what the democrats have done here Sunday does nothing to control costs.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:18 am 
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Dash wrote:
It's been noted over and over that what the democrats have done here Sunday does nothing to control costs.

Raising taxation and monetizing the difference isn't controlling costs?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:31 am 
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03 ... olitics%29

Stupak catches it on the House floor.....


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:16 am 
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So what's next? She is right that this is a very scary precedent to set. Even more so if there is no major upheaval in november.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... are/37799/

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The Future After Health Care

Mar 21 2010, 6:30 PM ET
Regardless of what you think about health care, tomorrow we wake up in a different political world.

Parties have passed legislation before that wasn't broadly publicly supported. But the only substantial instances I can think of in America are budget bills and TARP--bills that the congressmen were basically forced to by emergencies in the markets.

One cannot help but admire Nancy Pelosi's skill as a legislator. But it's also pretty worrying. Are we now in a world where there is absolutely no recourse to the tyranny of the majority? Republicans and other opponents of the bill did their job on this; they persuaded the country that they didn't want this bill. And that mattered basically not at all. If you don't find that terrifying, let me suggest that you are a Democrat who has not yet contemplated what Republicans might do under similar circumstances. Farewell, Social Security! Au revoir, Medicare! The reason entitlements are hard to repeal is that the Republicans care about getting re-elected. If they didn't--if they were willing to undertake this sort of suicide mission--then the legislative lock-in you're counting on wouldn't exist.

Oh, wait--suddenly it doesn't seem quite fair that Republicans could just ignore the will of their constituents that way, does it? Yet I guarantee you that there are a lot of GOP members out there tonight who think that they should get at least one free "Screw You" vote to balance out what the Democrats just did.

If the GOP takes the legislative innovations of the Democrats and decides to use them, please don't complain that it's not fair. Someone could get seriously hurt, laughing that hard.

But I hope they don't. What I hope is that the Democrats take a beating at the ballot box and rethink their contempt for those mouth-breathing illiterates in the electorate. I hope Obama gets his wish to be a one-term president who passed health care. Not because I think I will like his opponent--I very much doubt that I will support much of anything Obama's opponent says. But because politicians shouldn't feel that the best route to electoral success is to lie to the voters, and then ignore them.

We're not a parliamentary democracy, and we don't have the mechanisms, like votes of no confidence, that parliamentary democracies use to provide a check on their politicians. The check that we have is that politicians care what the voters think. If that slips away, America's already quite toxic politics will become poisonous.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:32 am 
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I'm OK with "suicide legislators". But then, I'm OK with scrapping Social Security and Medicare/Medicade.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:58 am 
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Hmm. I could get behind suicide legislation if laws had a built-in delay in their effect, to give the people the chance to elect somebody to repeal the suicide legislation..

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:24 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:26 am 
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That political cartoonist is obviously a foul racist.

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Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:32 am 
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Khross wrote:
That political cartoonist is obviously a foul racist.


Nah, but these guys are:

Spoiler:
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Spoiler:
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/groan ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:33 am 
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I'm in favor of universal health coverage, and yet I am still thinking this bill looks like a disaster in the making.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:36 am 
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I don't know what's better: the mandate or the fact that the bill makes it impossible for most Americans already covered by a group plan to afford the same said plans they already had. It's kind of awesome that way.

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:43 am 
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My health care, in the state of Ohio, will be considered a Cadillac plan if costs increase 15% in the 3 years between now and when they start penalizing you for having one. Joy.

I shudder to think how many people in Massachusetts, New York, California, Washington, etc. will be hit.

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"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Last edited by Kaffis Mark V on Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:44 am 
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Unlike Khross, I haven't read the current bill and fixes, but are HDHP plans still axed as acceptable forms of insurance?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:49 am 
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Ladas:

Yup. They don't meet the minimum cover requirement according to the bill Reid had on his website.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:51 am 
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Does the "fix" that the House wants to amend address those plans? Or are they nixed no matter what?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:53 am 
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Ladas:

Nixed no matter what. The Senate version isn't a legal candidate for reconciliation according to the things I heard on NPR this morning. This means we get the Reid Bill as the Senate passed it with no changes.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:54 am 
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But... but... they promised I'd get to keep my current insurance under the new plan... I'm so disappointed now.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:57 am 
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Ladas wrote:
But... but... they promised I'd get to keep my current insurance under the new plan... I'm so disappointed now.


I was also promised a pony.

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