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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:12 pm 
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http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2215987420100322

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Florida says several states to file healthcare lawsuit

Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:01am EDTMIAMI, March 22 (Reuters) - Florida's attorney general will file a lawsuit with nine other state attorneys general opposing the healthcare legislation passed by Congress, a spokeswoman said on Monday.

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"The health care reform legislation passed by the U.S. House of Representatives last night clearly violates the U.S. Constitution and infringes on each state's sovereignty," Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum, a Republican, said in a prepared statement announcing a news conference.

"On behalf of the State of Florida and of the Attorneys General from South Carolina, Nebraska, Texas, Utah, Pennsylvania, Washington, North Dakota, South Dakota and Alabama if the President signs this bill into law, we will file a lawsuit to protect the rights and the interests of American citizens." (Reporting by Michael Connor, Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2219276420100322

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Virginia to sue U.S. over healthcare reform
Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:22am EDT* Virginia to file lawsuit after Obama signs bill into law

Regulatory News | Bonds

* AG: Congress lacks power to force insurance purchases

NEW YORK, March 22 (Reuters) - Virginia's attorney general said he plans to sue the federal government over the healthcare reform legislation, saying Congress lacks authority to force people to buy health insurance.

Attorney General Kenneth Cuccinelli, a Republican, said on Monday that Congress lacks authority under its constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce to force people to buy insurance. He said the bill also conflicts with a state law that says Virginians cannot be required to buy insurance.

"If a person decides not to buy health insurance, that person by definition is not engaging in commerce," Cuccinelli said in recorded comments. "If you are not engaging in commerce, how can the federal government regulate you?"

Cuccinelli said he plans to file his lawsuit in federal court in Richmond, Virginia, after President Barack Obama signs the bill into law, which he is expected to do.

The bill requires most Americans to have health coverage, and provides subsidies to help lower-income workers afford it. [ID:nLDE62L01U]

No Republican voted for the bill, which passed the House on Sunday night by a 219-212 vote. (Reporting by Jonathan Stempel; editing by John Wallace)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:23 pm 
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What's the over/under on the Federal Department of Justice attempting to deny standing?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:32 pm 
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I'm afraid to ask. But it will be amusing, to say the least, to see them deny standing to the states themselves.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:34 pm 
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That's when I think you begin to hear secession talk in earnest.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:35 pm 
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I dunno, but how many SC Justices do you bet are drooling over the chance to put Obama and his agenda in its place after this year's SotU?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I dunno, but how many SC Justices do you bet are drooling over the chance to put Obama and his agenda in its place after this year's SotU?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Only 7?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Ginsburg and Sotomayor are too busy bowing and scraping.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:46 pm 
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It's not her fault - she's no 7...not even a 1.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:47 pm 
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I wouldn't hit it with a heavy artillery round.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
I wouldn't hit it with a heavy artillery round.

I wouldn't hit it even with YOUR heavy artillery round.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I wouldn't hit it with a heavy artillery round.
I wouldn't hit it even with YOUR heavy artillery round.
I wouldn't hit it even with YOUR heavy artillery round and the Soviets shooting.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
I wouldn't hit it with a heavy artillery round.

Definitely not while Obama's in office, at least.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:59 pm 
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This 1925 USSC case has been brandied about a few times as precedence for a ruling by the USSC when the states file.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Khross wrote:
What's the over/under on the Federal Department of Justice attempting to deny standing?


I refuse to believe that anyone's balls are that big.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Khross wrote:
What's the over/under on the Federal Department of Justice attempting to deny standing?


Depends what theory the states try to argue on. If the states argue that the individual mandate is unConstitutional because it forces individual citizens to buy insurance, they probably will be denied standing, and rightly so. That's a case for an individual citizen to bring. On the other hand, if they argue that it's unConstitutional because it violates the 10th Amendment or because it provides kickbacks to certain states and not others (i.e. isn't "for the General Welfare"), then they'd probably be granted standing, though those are most likely going to be losing arguments anyway.

I think the best argument for unConstitutionality is to go after the individual mandate, but again, that has to be brought by an individual. However, since that part doesn't go into effect for a few years, chances are the courts will say it's not ripe for adjudication yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:18 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Depends what theory the states try to argue on. If the states argue that the individual mandate is unConstitutional because it forces individual citizens to buy insurance, they probably will be denied standing, and rightly so.
Any of the individual citizens questioning Obama's eligibility have already helped established precedent that vacates the Redress Clause of the First Amendment. The individual citizens of the U.S. have no standing against the Federal government anymore.
RangerDave wrote:
On the other hand, if they argue that it's unConstitutional because it violates the 10th Amendment or because it provides kickbacks to certain states and not others (i.e. isn't "for the General Welfare"), then they'd probably be granted standing, though those are most likely going to be losing arguments anyway.
Fourteenth vacated the Tenth, so no one is going to challenge them on this level.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:22 pm 
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In which case, at least we've got Virginia's case there prepped for the State to argue on behalf of its individuals.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:35 pm 
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With the ruling of Raich neither the states nor the people have any hope of getting the Fed to voluntarily release its influence.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:05 pm 
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Here is what my Rhode Island Attorney General, Patrick Lynch, had to say about the court challenege:

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"I don't like a lot of the decisions that the legislature makes every day. Do I go up and sue them? And do you have the basis to do so, more to the point?" Lynch said in a late-morning interview, characterizing the looming lawsuits in a dozen states as "political posturing....But at the outset, moments after the vote, when they're crying and putting up [lawsuit threats] on Facebook in Texas first, there's a procedure that we go through as attorneys general when something is more substantive, and this seems to be a partisan driven mechanism," said Lynch, a Democratic candidate for governor.

"To me it's a moment that should be celebrated," he said of Sunday's health-care vote.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


Last edited by Rynar on Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:40 am 
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At first I took heart at the prospect of states passing legislation to shield their populations
from the new mandates.

After hearing and reading more about this I am coming to the conclusion that this is just more posturing by career politicians.

Here is why.
wikipedia wrote:
The Supremacy Clause is a clause in the United States Constitution, Article VI, Clause 2. The clause establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land." The text establishes these as the highest form of law in the American legal system, mandating that state judges uphold them, even if state laws or constitutions conflict...

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

...The Supremacy Clause has been interpreted to come in effect only when the federal government has acted in an area. In Edgar v. Mite Corporation, 457 U.S. 624 (1982), the Supreme Court ruled that "A state statute is void to the extent that it actually conflicts with a valid federal statute." In effect, this means that a state law will be found to violate the supremacy clause when either of two conditions exists:

1. Compliance with both federal and state law is impossible, or

2."...state law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress..."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:51 am 
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Which is why all the State laws/constitutions do is provide the State with standing to argue the unConstitutionality of the Federal law, not exempt them from Federal law.

The argument is "the Federal law you just passed is prohibited by the US Constitution; (usually because) it is one of the powers reserved to the several States. Thus, you're interfering with our right to include this in our State Constitution/law."

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:33 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Which is why all the State laws/constitutions do is provide the State with standing to argue the unConstitutionality of the Federal law, not exempt them from Federal law.

The argument is "the Federal law you just passed is prohibited by the US Constitution; (usually because) it is one of the powers reserved to the several States. Thus, you're interfering with our right to include this in our State Constitution/law."


Yes, but they don't need those state laws exempting their citizens. Those laws are dumb. If the federal law is constitutional, it holds supremecy over your state law. If the federal law is unconstitutional, then the state law exempts them from... nothing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:44 am 
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The State law exempts the populace from the State creating laws.

It also gives the State standing to challenge the Constitutionality; something that they're better funded to do than individuals, and also something that pays off when your Federal judiciary starts denying individuals standing.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:48 pm 
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You've got the standing issue reversed, Kaffis. It's the states who are going to have a hard time demonstrating that they have standing, while individuals almost certainly will*.

*However, the individual cases may not be "ripe" until the individual mandate kicks in a few years down the road. That's different than "standing" though.


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