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 Post subject: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:52 pm 
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I never thought I'd see the day. Looks like liberalism run amuck is good for something after all.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/gohmert-fight-health-care-bill-by-repealing-popular-election-of-senators-video.php?ref=fpblg

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Gohmert: Fight Health Care Bill By Repealing Popular Election Of Senators

Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) is calling for a strong re-assertion of states rights against Congress -- in the form of a Constitutional amendment to eliminate the direct popular election of Senators, and go back to the pre-17th Amendment setup of state legislatures appointing them.

"Ever since the safeguard of State legislatures electing U.S. Senators was removed by the 17th Amendment in 1913, there has been no check or balance on the Federal power grab for the last 97 years," Gohmert said in a press release, calling for a constitutional convention of the states. "Article V requires a minimum of 34 states to request a Convention which in this case, would be an Amendment Convention for only ONE amendment."

As Dave Weigel points out, this setup would result in Democrats losing a few Senate seats under the current balance of power in the state legislatures. On the other hand, as Media Matters notes, Sen. Scott Brown (R-MA) could have never been elected under this system -- the Democratic legislature in Massachusetts would have selected a Democrat to fill the seat, and that would have been that.

It should also be noted that the pre-17th Amendment system was prone to quirks of the district-based systems for state legislatures, on those rare occasions when a state legislative election effectively became a referendum on the Senate seat. For example, Abraham Lincoln's Republicans won the popular vote in the 1858 Illinois legislative/Senate race, but Stephen Douglas's Democrats benefited from an outdated and badly apportioned district map that preserved their majority. Lincoln carried Illinois against Douglas in the presidential election two years later, in a statewide vote that was not dependent on districts.

[youtube]CqStgReNu8Y[/youtube]

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Last edited by Rynar on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:53 pm 
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**** YES!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:01 pm 
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WOOOOOO *poops* ehh... *ignore it and continues cheering* OOoooooooooooooo

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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:12 pm 
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While yer at it:

1) Amend to compensate representatives in both house by each State, not the Feds, including whatever health care plan the rest of us have to live with; each state will set the compensation it will pay its reps, and reps cannot vote on raises for themselves.

2) Amend that lobbyists can only meet with reps while the rep is in his own district or state, at a town hall meeting that is open to the public; no exceptions, with criminal penalties for violations for both the lobbyist and the rep.

3) Amend that ALL meetings between the prez and congress be recorded visually, with records available to the public immediately except when national security is a CLEAR and ONLY topic, then the visual recording kept on record for release later, with varification oversight.

That'll do for starters.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:16 pm 
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Unlikely to happen, but we can dream.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:26 am 
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I think this is a fabulous idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:32 am 
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We live in the age of Polycom. Why not just keep them here and make them telecommute?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:46 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
We live in the age of Polycom. Why not just keep them here and make them telecommute?

Would pixel #321 on the monitor please vote ya or nay?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:04 am 
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Huh, interesting argument. So putting aside how difficult it would be to make the argument that we need to take the vote away from citizens, the idea is that Senators would be accountable to the legislature and not bound by public opinion.

I like it, although again this would be a very tough sell.

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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:10 am 
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They already vote electronically in the house. Why can't those votes be sent by VPN? You don't have to be able to see the face of every congresssitter. You just activate the terminal of whoever as the "floor" during debate. It's very doable.

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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:42 am 
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I'd be opposed, the possibility of cyber attack and hacking would make me leery.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:03 am 
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By the way I was talking aobout distributing congress not direct voting.

I don't see the hacking of military encription of 535 VPN tunnels as any more real threat than a physical attack on the Capitol buidling

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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:56 am 
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Can't watch the video right now, so can someone summarize the arguments being made? I don't see any realistic benefits from such a move, and it seems there would be some fairly obvious downsides - e.g., loss of accountability to the public, increased party control of officials (say goodbye to third parties), "nationalization" of local politics, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:51 am 
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Beryllin wrote:
While yer at it:
[...]

I appreciate the sentiment, here, but your second proposition abridges free speech, thereby running afoul of the 1st amendment. More practically speaking, how do you define a "lobbyist" in any legally meaningful way? Anyone who wants affect national policy is a lobbyist. What you're really talking about is trying to decide what kinds of lobbying is "good" and what kind is "bad". While I understand the issue you're trying to address, I think this is dangerous way to go about it. McCain-Feingold at least placed the same restrictions on everyone.

Regardless, this would at most just drive the lobbying "underground" into private correspondence instead. I don't think it would offer any actual, practical benefit, while raising considerable 1st amendment concerns. On the whole, I have to reject it.

As for your 1st and 3rd, I'd have to think on it some more to have a firm opinion. Offhand, I don't have any immediate objection, and the 1st is probably something I could get behind just for the sake of not letting Congress control its own salaries.

With respect to your 3rd proposition, doesn't CSPAN already do this? To tell you the truth, though, I'd be more interested in getting transcripts of the various House and Senate committee meetings. To avoid any inconsistency, though, any such amendment would need to be properly reconciled with Article 1, Section 5:

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Each House shall keep a Journal of its Proceedings, and from time to time publish the same, excepting such Parts as may in their Judgment require Secrecy; and the Yeas and Nays of the Members of either House on any question shall, at the Desire of one fifth of those Present, be entered on the Journal.

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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:13 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
e.g., loss of accountability to the public, increased party control of officials (say goodbye to third parties), "nationalization" of local politics, etc.

There's already no accountability to the public, and, well ... we've already had a number of arguments about the effects of popular election of senators. As counter-intuitive as it might sound, I'm coming to believe that popular election of senators has actually decreased government accountability.

As for 3rd parties, it's generally much easier to get a 3rd party or independent candidate elected to a state legislature than a national one. If anything, I think this would be a win for 3rd parties.

And I don't see where "nationalization of local politics", as you put it, is bad thing. Senators are supposed to represent their state on the national platform. That's rather the point of the Senate. In contrast, the House represents the people of the States (which is where you would really see local politics playing out on the national stage, anyway). That was rather the whole point of having a bicameral Congress in the first place. It was never intended to function with both houses being subject to direct, popular election. It's all about checks and balances. The House was to be a check against the potential abuses of indirect election, while the Senate was to be a check against the abuses of popular election.

Especially since the U.S. population has grown far beyond what the authors of the Constitution anticipated, let alone dealt with in their own time, I believe this division has become more important than ever. Something has to balance out the pressures of both mob mentality and the ever increasingly diluted popular vote (especially in high population states).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:17 am 
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Less democracy, I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Repeal the 17th
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:33 am 
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Stathol wrote:
And I don't see where "nationalization of local politics", as you put it, is bad thing. Senators are supposed to represent their state on the national platform. That's rather the point of the Senate.


To clarify on this point, by "nationalization of local politics", I mean that the party make-up of state legislatures would become a matter of national concern, since those legislatures would be selecting US Senators. As a result, local elections would become focused on national issues rather than local ones, and the national parties and big-money lobbies would get involved. I think that's a definite downside - I want the candidates for State Representative from my hometown in VT debating local zoning and school funding issues, not reciting talking points on Iran handed to them by the national party committees.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:49 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
I want the candidates for State Representative from my hometown in VT debating local zoning and school funding issues, not reciting talking points on Iran handed to them by the national party committees.

Then vote for the guy who is talking about local zoning and funding issues, and encourage your local populace to do the same. After all, selecting a Senator is a task that happens twice in six years, and is thus a TINY part of the job.

And Stathol pretty well covered the increased viability of 3rd parties (look at countries with more than two parties at the national level, and look how they elect people. It's not with every official subject to popular elections) and accountability.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:32 pm 
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I was going to raise the same rebuttal re. senatorial term length. Let me just add to that there are many, many state legislator positions out there. Even if you've got the money to influence that many campaigns, I just can't see that happening very effectively simply because of the logistics. But even if this were so, I'm tempted to say that the increase of public interest in state offices would be worth the trade anyway. And if we're going to have lobbying interfering with the political process, I'd rather see it at the state and local level rather than the national level for a variety of reasons.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:13 pm 
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If you went this route you'd end up with Lame Duck senators serving a 6 year term when their party gets voted out of the state legislature. In those cases the Senator was not elected by the people or the legislature they are representing any more. At least now the people directly vote them into office.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:25 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
If you went this route you'd end up with Lame Duck senators serving a 6 year term when their party gets voted out of the state legislature. In those cases the Senator was not elected by the people or the legislature they are representing any more. At least now the people directly vote them into office.

But that's the thing, though -- at the State level, neither party is particularly motivated to cede power to the Fed. Especially after decades of unfunded and underfunded mandates passed down from on high by both parties. So even a lame duck senator is going to want to be a watchdog against encroachment onto his State's domain.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
If you went this route you'd end up with Lame Duck senators serving a 6 year term when their party gets voted out of the state legislature. In those cases the Senator was not elected by the people or the legislature they are representing any more. At least now the people directly vote them into office.


We already went this route once and I don't know that it was a problem then.

Lame-duckness is an issue for Presidents because they represent the entire executive branch all in one guy. For Senators its not as much of an issue because they just vote, and they're just one guy out of a hundred.

It's entirely possible that a Senator could be selected in the same election cycle as the party that selects him gets ousted, just because of delay between election and change of officeholder. Then the new party has 6 years that this guy will represent them. Who is really the lame duck there?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:01 pm 
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Removing popular election of Senators would definitely increase government accountability. You can't gerrymander the state legislature.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Some state legistive bodies could have a couple of elections in between the senators term. (I think ohio house members serve for two.) So they'd definitely want to make the new bosses happy every couple of years.

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