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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:43 am 
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I'm not sure if any of you have been following the slew of companies that have already notified the SEC of write-downs (as required by law btw) as a direct result of the tax changes in the new Obamacare, but below is the short list, with others making early noise about having to do so as well:

AT&T's = $1 billion
Deere & Co. = $150 million
Caterpillar = $100 million
AK Steel = $31 million
3M = $90 million
Valero Energy = $20 million

Of course, this can't be reality, because it is counter to the "independent analysis" that the Democrats used to argue for the reform (despite that analysis being pointed out as flawed from the start), so now Waxman has decided such decisions should have answered presented to Congress on April 21st...

Here is an editorial from the WSJ regarding an admittedly biased opinion regarding the reasoning for calling the hearings.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:23 am 
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And Waxman is calling the CEO's to his committee for a interrogation as to why they would say such slander against so perfect a program.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:38 am 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of these writedowns simply due to the elimination of the tax-free status of employer-provided health plans? If so, boo-freakin-hoo. It was a stupid, market-distorting tax subsidy in the first place. As for calling these companies to testify on the Hill, though, I agree that's unnecessary and possibly inappropriate (need more info to decide for sure). If it's really just for information-gathering purposes, why not just give the CFOs a call?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:43 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of these writedowns simply due to the elimination of the tax-free status of employer-provided health plans? If so, boo-freakin-hoo. It was a stupid, market-distorting tax subsidy in the first place.
Which side of the scale do you think will carry the additional weight of this, business or taxpayers?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:56 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most of these writedowns simply due to the elimination of the tax-free status of employer-provided health plans?

Not really. The write downs are in response to the elimination of a tax subsidy which was provided as an incentive to businesses to maintain drug plans for their retirees instead of pushing that group over to Medicare and adding to the rolls of beneficiaries there. The new health care eliminate those tax considerations, so the companies have to take charges against their earnings to maintain those retiree drug benefits until their labor contracts expire and they can re-negotiate with the Unions.

The tax free status of company provided health plans is a whole different ball of wax that hasn't started to melt yet.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:59 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
Which side of the scale do you think will carry the additional weight of this, business or taxpayers?


Probably a mix of the two. I recall seeing a stat somewhere that about 70% of corporate taxes get passed through to consumers, with the rest being absorbed by the companies themselves, but I'd have to look it up to confirm. All that aside, as I said to Xeq in another thread, the point of removing the tax subsidy is to encourage businesses to drop their group insurance plans entirely (since there's no longer a tax benefit to keeping them), and just pay their employees in wages rather than benefits. If it works as planned, fewer and fewer companies will end up paying this tax at all down the road.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:05 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
the point of removing the tax subsidy is to encourage businesses to drop their group insurance plans entirely (since there's no longer a tax benefit to keeping them), and just pay their employees in wages rather than benefits. If it works as planned, fewer and fewer companies will end up paying this tax at all down the road.

Except the "plan" in place, if that was the goal there RD, does not actually support that move, since all the company is doing is trading the tax paid for health care for a penalty paid for not supplying health care. The worker receives nothing, with the money going to government coffers under either scenario.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:10 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Except the "plan" in place, if that was the goal there RD, does not actually support that move, since all the company is doing is trading the tax paid for health care for a penalty paid for not supplying health care. The worker receives nothing, with the money going to government coffers under either scenario.


Hmm, good point. Is there a phase-in/out period that prevents the two from overlapping?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:19 am 
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I'll be interested to see how this hearing plays out. If they end up being accusatory, I fully hope these CEO's disrespect that board.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:27 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hmm, good point. Is there a phase-in/out period that prevents the two from overlapping?

No, since that would push the CBO estimates over the magic "$1 trillion" in total cost.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:15 am 
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Ladas wrote:
The write downs are in response to the elimination of a tax subsidy which was provided as an incentive to businesses to maintain drug plans for their retirees instead of pushing that group over to Medicare and adding to the rolls of beneficiaries there. The new health care eliminate those tax considerations, so the companies have to take charges against their earnings to maintain those retiree drug benefits until their labor contracts expire and they can re-negotiate with the Unions.


Ahh, ok. This is the Medicare Part D thing. Yeah, that's a bit of a tough nut. On the one hand, the government never should have started the subsidy in the first place, so it's a good thing that it's being trimmed back. On the other hand, the subsidy was started, and these companies signed labor contracts on the assumption that the subsidy would be around for a while, so it kind of sucks for the government to now change its mind. At the end of the day, though, the government has to be able to cancel subsidies that no longer make sense (if they ever did), even if doing so is going to hurt the businesses that benefit from them. Also, I believe this change doesn't actually kick in right away, so the businesses can have time to adjust, but SEC rules require them to do forward-looking writedowns, which is why we're seeing it in the news now.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:39 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Except the "plan" in place, if that was the goal there RD, does not actually support that move, since all the company is doing is trading the tax paid for health care for a penalty paid for not supplying health care. The worker receives nothing, with the money going to government coffers under either scenario.


Ok, just did some quick reading on this, and according to this article, the size of the penalty is so low compared to the savings from canceling an employer health plan, that there's little doubt many employers will come out way ahead by canceling their plans and eating the penalty:

The New Yorker wrote:
Take a medium-sized firm that employs a hundred people earning $40,000 each—a private security firm based in Atlanta, say—and currently offers them health-care insurance worth $10,000 a year, of which the employees pay $2,500. This employer’s annual health-care costs are $750,000 (a hundred times $7,500). In the reformed system, the firm’s workers, if they didn’t have insurance, would be eligible for generous subsidies to buy private insurance. For example, a married forty-year-old security guard whose wife stayed home to raise two kids could enroll in a non-group plan for less than $1,400 a year, according to the Kaiser Health Reform Subsidy Calculator. (The subsidy from the government would be $8,058.)

In a situation like this, the firm has a strong financial incentive to junk its group coverage and dump its workers onto the taxpayer-subsidized plan. Under the new law, firms with more than fifty workers that don’t offer coverage would have to pay an annual fine of $2,000 for every worker they employ, excepting the first thirty. In this case, the security firm would incur a fine of $140,000 (seventy times two), but it would save $610,000 a year on health-care costs. If you owned this firm, what would you do? Unless you are unusually public spirited, you would take advantage of the free money that the government is giving out. Since your employees would see their own health-care contributions fall by more than $1,100 a year, or almost half, they would be unlikely to complain. And even if they did, you would be saving so much money you afford to buy their agreement with a pay raise of, say, $2,000 a year, and still come out well ahead.


Of that $610,000 savings to the company, at least some of it will eventually end up going to wages, and various liberal pundits argue that this is all an intended consequence of reform (which is what I said). Of course, if you read the whole article, you'll see that this analysis leads the author to conclude that this doesn't exactly square with the rhetoric coming from the Dems in Congress and the Administration about keeping costs under $1 trillion and people being able to keep their current insurance plans if they want:

The New Yorker wrote:
The designers of health-care reform and the C.B.O. are aware of this problem, but, in my view, they have greatly underestimated it....The C.B.O.’s analysis can’t be dismissed out of hand, but it is surely a best-case scenario....If economics has anything to say as a subject, it is that you can’t offer people or firms large financial rewards for doing something—in this case, dropping their group coverage—and not expect them to do it in large numbers. On this issue, I find myself in agreement with Tyler Cowen and other conservative economists. Over time, the “firewall” between the existing system of employer-provided group insurance and taxpayer-subsidized individual insurance is likely to break down, with more and more workers being shunted over to the public teat.

At that point, if it comes, politicians of both parties will be back close to where they began: searching for health-care reform that provides adequate coverage for all at a cost the country can afford. What would such a system look like? That is a topic for another post, but I don’t think it would look much like Romney-ObamaCare.


Last edited by RangerDave on Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:58 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ok, just did some quick reading on this, and according to this article, the size of the penalty is so low compared to the savings from canceling an employer health plan, that there's little doubt many employers will come out way ahead by canceling their plans and eating the penalty:

Can you double check your link? The article I found when clicking on your link says nothing about the penalties for lack of group plans. It also doesn't include any of the other quotes you listed, except a vaguely similiar comment to the last one... we will be back in a few years redoing everything because this doesn't work.

That said, yes, the penalty is less than the average cost of a group plan through work. I believe the penalty is in the $2,000 mark, while the average plan is several times that. But again, all this does for definite is add to the government coffers. There is no guarantee that companies, especially in today's market, will shift the difference into salaries. For one, because the corporate tax rates also increased. As I pointed out above, when I click on the link, I don't get the article you quoted, but I feel fairly confident that the author, when claiming the savings to companies will go to employees, calculated the other taxes recently imposed on companies.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:01 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ahh, ok. This is the Medicare Part D thing. Yeah, that's a bit of a tough nut. On the one hand, the government never should have started the subsidy in the first place, so it's a good thing that it's being trimmed back. On the other hand, the subsidy was started, and these companies signed labor contracts on the assumption that the subsidy would be around for a while, so it kind of sucks for the government to now change its mind.

I'd have to do some research to make sure my memory matches reality, but if I recall correctly, the subsidy was seen as a less expensive means to provide drug coverage to retirees than putting them on Medicare, at least from the position of the federal government. The subsidy was less than the direct cost.

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At the end of the day, though, the government has to be able to cancel subsidies that no longer make sense (if they ever did), even if doing so is going to hurt the businesses that benefit from them.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, its politics, and the favored voting group will get to keep their subsidies at the cost of taxpayers, while others will lose, also at the cost to taxpayers.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:05 pm 
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I can see his article being accurate, because it's aimed at really low income workers. Supporting a family of four on $40,000 a year? Good luck.

In a different company where everyone makes $80,000 a year with the same health care plan, they're pretty screwed. At this income level, you don't qualify for a subsidy. So you get kicked in the balls repeatedly. Your health care spending is no longer tax free, because it's now individual, not through a tax-exempt group plan. So you just switch to paying a lot more than $10,000 out-of-pocket for your health care. On top of that, your employer has to pay an extra $2,000 tax to employ you, which has to come out of wages. So now while you might make $88,000 instead of $80,000, you're paying the equivalent of $15,000 out-of-pocket for your health care where you were previously paying $2,500.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:09 pm 
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So my employer will stop with my healthcare, no? My healthcare costs are deducted from my wages pre-tax so when they stop supplying the portion that I pay at least will roll into my pay. Which will bump my tax bracket.

What's supposed to be offsetting this?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:11 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Can you double check your link?


Whoops, fixed it now.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:13 pm 
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I just feel bad for for employee number 51/51, working for a firm that currently doesn't provide health care benefits.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:14 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So my employer will stop with my healthcare, no? My healthcare costs are deducted from my wages pre-tax so when they stop supplying the portion that I pay at least will roll into my pay. Which will bump my tax bracket.

What's supposed to be offsetting this?


Why do you care if you jump tax brackets?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:34 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Whoops, fixed it now.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Why do you care if you jump tax brackets?

Well... off the top of my head, jumping in income could also put you into the phase out ranges for a lot of the tax benefits currently allowed, that are pegged directly to income, such as Child Care Credits, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So my employer will stop with my healthcare, no? My healthcare costs are deducted from my wages pre-tax so when they stop supplying the portion that I pay at least will roll into my pay. Which will bump my tax bracket.

What's supposed to be offsetting this?


Why do you care if you jump tax brackets?


Because now I'll be taxed on that portion of my income at a higher rate than I was previously untaxed on?

And now I may have to buy my own insurance to boot?

Remind me again what's good about this plan for those of us that already have, and are happy with our insurance?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:51 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Why do you care if you jump tax brackets?

Well... off the top of my head, jumping in income could also put you into the phase out ranges for a lot of the tax benefits currently allowed, that are pegged directly to income, such as Child Care Credits, etc.


Well that's true. I guess I don't think about it because I'm already above these. The democrats think I'm wealthy don't ya know.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So my employer will stop with my healthcare, no? My healthcare costs are deducted from my wages pre-tax so when they stop supplying the portion that I pay at least will roll into my pay. Which will bump my tax bracket.

What's supposed to be offsetting this?


Why do you care if you jump tax brackets?


Because now I'll be taxed on that portion of my income at a higher rate than I was previously untaxed on?


It's income you didn't have before.

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And now I may have to buy my own insurance to boot?


Which is a good point, but I would assume this would still be deductible.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Müs wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:

Why do you care if you jump tax brackets?


Because now I'll be taxed on that portion of my income at a higher rate than I was previously untaxed on?


It's income you didn't have before.


No, I *had* it, it just wasn't taxed. Now, I'm making more money, being taxed more, and nothing's changed for me.

Arathain Kelvar wrote:
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And now I may have to buy my own insurance to boot?


Which is a good point, but I would assume this would still be deductible.


I wouldn't assume anything about that.

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