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 Post subject: Re: Tax revolt?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:11 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Murder is unlawful killing. Killing by "black-ops" (a rather hollywoodish term, by the way) is sanctioned by the government. It is therefore not murder.


I believe Aizle's using the term "murder" in a moral sense, not a legal one.


Murder, even in the moral sense, means "killings unsanctioned by society's approved means". In other words, a killing that violates whatever system of law any given society may have. There is no difference between the moral and legal sense of the word murder.

Murder does not mean "any killing one morally disapproves of".

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Or it can mean:

kill intentionally and with premeditation; "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

when used as a verb.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax revolt?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:27 pm 
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Let me get this straight: Killing people is okay with God, as long as some government, somewhere, sanctioned it? That seems awfully convenient.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Or it can mean:

kill intentionally and with premeditation; "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

when used as a verb.


In that case it means kill intentionally and with premeditation illegally.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax revolt?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Let me get this straight: Killing people is okay with God, as long as some government, somewhere, sanctioned it? That seems awfully convenient.


Does it? God orders the Israelites to wipe out their enemies in the OT. In the NT Jesus says "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's" and generally indicates that temporal authority is to be (generally) respected. The sanctioning voernment will have to answer eventually too; if He finds fault with that all it does is absolve the person who actually did the deed of sin.

God isn't all that appalled at human death; He gave us limited lifespans in the first place and He also knows exactly what's going to happen to us afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Or it can mean:

kill intentionally and with premeditation; "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

when used as a verb.


In that case it means kill intentionally and with premeditation illegally.


No, if it meant that I am pretty sure a dictionary would have added that to the definition.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Or it can mean:

kill intentionally and with premeditation; "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

when used as a verb.


In that case it means kill intentionally and with premeditation illegally.


No, if it meant that I am pretty sure a dictionary would have added that to the definition.

Quote:
murder |ˈmərdər|
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Yes and as I have stated before:

S: (v) murder, slay, hit, dispatch, bump off, off, polish off, remove (kill intentionally and with premeditation) "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:31 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Yes and as I have stated before:

S: (v) murder, slay, hit, dispatch, bump off, off, polish off, remove (kill intentionally and with premeditation) "The mafia boss ordered his enemies murdered"

"unlawful". You keep forgetting "unlawful".

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Neither I nor the dictionary are forgetting the term you terribly wish to inject into a definition that does not posses it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Neither I nor the dictionary are forgetting the term you terribly wish to inject into a definition that does not posses it.

Mine do.
Quote:
murder |ˈmərdər|
noun
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another : the stabbing murder of an off-Broadway producer | he was put on trial for attempted murder. See note at kill .
• informal a very difficult or unpleasant task or experience : my first job at the steel mill was murder.
• informal something causing great discomfort to a part of the body : that exercise is murder on the lumbar regions.
verb [ trans. ]
kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation : somebody tried to murder Joe.
• informal punish severely or be very angry with : my father will murder me if I'm home late.
• informal conclusively defeat (an opponent) in a game or sport.
• spoil by lack of skill or knowledge : the only thing he had murdered was the English language.
PHRASES
get away with murder informal succeed in doing whatever one chooses without being punished or suffering any disadvantage.
murder one (or two) informal first-degree (or second-degree) murder.
murder will out murder cannot remain undetected.
scream (or yell) bloody (or Brit. blue) murder informal scream loudly due to pain or fright; make an extravagant and noisy protest : she had tripped and was screaming bloody murder.
DERIVATIVES
murderer noun
murderess |ˈmərdərəs| noun
ORIGIN Old English morthor, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch moord and German Mord, from an Indo-European root shared by Sanskrit mará ‘death’ and Latin mors; reinforced in Middle English by Old French murdre.

Suddenly, it all makes sense!

You need a better dictionary, Elmo. One that has nouns, apparently. Your verbs suck.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:41 pm 
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I know! Lets use a legal dictionary!

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1303
Quote:
murder
n. the killing of a human being by a sane person, with intent, malice aforethought (prior intention to kill the particular victim or anyone who gets in the way) and with no legal excuse or authority. In those clear circumstances, this is first degree murder. By statute, many states consider a killing in which there is torture, movement of the person before the killing (kidnapping) or the death of a police officer or prison guard, or it was as an incident to another crime (as during a hold-up or rape), to be first degree murder, with or without premeditation and with malice presumed. Second degree murder is such a killing without premeditation, as in the heat of passion or in a sudden quarrel or fight. Malice in second degree murder may be implied from a death due to the reckless lack of concern for the life of others (such as firing a gun into a crowd or bashing someone with any deadly weapon). Depending on the circumstances and state laws, murder in the first or second degree may be chargeable to a person who did not actually kill, but was involved in a crime with a partner who actually did the killing or someone died as the result of the crime. Example: In a liquor store stick-up in which the clerk shoots back at the hold-up man and kills a bystander, the armed robber can be convicted of at least second degree murder. A charge of murder requires that the victim must die within a year of the attack. Death of an unborn child who is "quick" (fetus is moving) can be murder, provided there was premeditation, malice and no legal authority. Thus, abortion is not murder under the law. Example: Jack Violent shoots his pregnant girlfriend, killing the fetus. Manslaughter, both voluntary and involuntary, lacks the element of malice aforethought.
See also: first degree murder homicide malice aforethought manslaughter premeditation second degree murder

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:08 pm 
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A legal dictionary which mandates that the included terms be viewed only from a legal instead of lexiconical view?

Oh yes that is sure to include definitions that are outside the scope of law.

No Taskiss I don't need a better dictionary. I never said murder when used as a noun did not refere to crimminal activity (the purview of law).

However you seem to be quite willing to admit that it has no such restriction when used as a verb.

What I find most fascinating (and sad) is that the morality of the act is being argued by what some human wrote down in a paper instead of on the nature of the act itself.

It combines nicely with my statement in the thread on Black and White thinking.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:13 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
However you seem to be quite willing to admit that it has no such restriction when used as a verb.

Not at all - I just noted that your quoted definition only showed the usage of the word as a verb. Mine showed both, and I quoted it.

How does your dictionary define the word as a noun?
Quote:
What I find most fascinating (and sad) is that the morality of the act is being argued by what some human wrote down in a paper instead of on the nature of the act itself.
Since you were the one that introduced 'what some human wrote down in a paper", I'm a bit surprised you characterize it as sad. Not that I disagree, I'm just surprised.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:16 pm 
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As the unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
As the unlawful premeditated killing of a human being by a human being.

for some reason, he's trying like the dickens to avoid admitting the "unlawful" part... not sure why, exactly.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Meh, methinks he's trying to show that murder is murder regardless of what the dictionary says- and to prove it, here's a dictionary definition!

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 Post subject: Re: Tax revolt?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:32 pm 
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The entire argument is even sillier than that because all it's really saying is that "murder" as a verb can be extended to any killing regardless of legality. All that does is make the verb murder synonymous with "kill". It isn't used that way. Even when used as a verb, it's used to differentiate the killing from killings in general as unlawful.

Some people try to use it as meaning "morally unacceptable" but what they really end up meaning if you dig into it is "This killing should be unlawful" and they're trying to imply that it is unlawful because they think it should be.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Kill does not necessarily mean killing a human, murder does when used as a verb.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Not according to the definition you posted, Elmo.

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 Post subject: Re: Tax revolt?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:55 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Some people try to use it as meaning "morally unacceptable" but what they really end up meaning if you dig into it is "This killing should be unlawful" and they're trying to imply that it is unlawful because they think it should be.


That's not my intent. I just think there's a difference between "unlawful killing" and "immoral killing", and that it's fair to describe either as murder so long as you indicate in which sense you mean it.


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 Post subject: Re: Tax revolt?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:47 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Some people try to use it as meaning "morally unacceptable" but what they really end up meaning if you dig into it is "This killing should be unlawful" and they're trying to imply that it is unlawful because they think it should be.


That's not my intent. I just think there's a difference between "unlawful killing" and "immoral killing", and that it's fair to describe either as murder so long as you indicate in which sense you mean it.


I don't really agree with that. I do not think it's possible to describe a killing as a murder without implying that it's deserving of punishment - i.e. illegal.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Not according to the definition you posted, Elmo.


Dude, you're on fire today....


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:40 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Civil disobedience should come after civil obedience... getting out and voting.


Voting is clearly working.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 pm 
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Wwen wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Civil disobedience should come after civil obedience... getting out and voting.


Voting is clearly working.

What the people voted for and got is exactly what they were told it was. Many of them are extremely pleased with themselves.

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