The Glade 4.0

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

From what I see, they may be accused of selling pipe bombs. Gonna watch this close.

I have read it was "gun charges", but that the warrants were sealed.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/mic ... google_cnn

'Christian warrior' militia accused in plot to kill police

(CNN) -- Nine people federal prosecutors say belong to a "Christian warrior" militia were accused Monday of plotting to kill a Michigan law enforcement officer and then attack other police at the funeral.

A federal grand jury in Detroit, Michigan, indicted six Michigan residents, two Ohioans and an Indiana resident on charges of seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence, U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade and Andrew Arena, FBI special agent in charge, announced.

The five-count indictment unsealed Monday charges that since August 2008, the defendants, acting as a Lenawee County, Michigan, militia group called the Hutaree, conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government.

Attorney General Eric Holder called it "an insidious plan by anti-government extremists."

The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior" and proclaims on its home page, "Preparing for the end time battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive."

In the Web site's "About Us" section, the group says, "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All Christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded."

The Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based nonprofit organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, lists the Hutaree as a "Patriot" group militia.

"Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the 'New World Order,' engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing or advocate or adhere to extreme anti-government doctrines," the Southern Poverty Law Center said in a report, "Rage on the Right: The Year in Hate and Extremism."

The law center also defines Patriot groups as "militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose 'one-world government' on liberty-loving Americans."

Wait, possessing a firearm during a crime of violence is a crime?

So, if I have a CCW, and carry out of habit, and go off my rocker and punch a dude, I get charged not only for battery (as I should be), but for having the gun I had the restraint NOT to use on me?

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Depends on how you presented the gun, but in most cases, yes, you would be at least charged.

From this site:

"in a way designed to further or carry out a drug-trafficking crime or a federal crime of violence"

Hard as ball to prove or disprove.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

That's sort of the point, Elmo. Guilty until proven innocent.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I can't speak to the Federal one (and I'd really like to see the case where someone got convicted where the gun wasn't on them; smart money says there's more to it than that) but in State laws, if you commit some violent crime while in posession of a weapon it becomes a more serious crime, or a separate crime - provided the victim is aware you have the weapon. If you're already committing a violent crime, there's a reasonable fear on the part of the victim that you might chose to use a weapon you have.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Militias? This sounds more like a terrorist organization. If found guilty, I hope they rot.

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"I've got twenty ways to tell you shut the f*ck up / nineteen of them are twenty-four bars long / the other one goes: SHUT THE F*CK UP" - Aesop Rock
"There is no God higher than truth." -- Gandhi
Formerly: Tulamian

This is a statute that should only apply if the weapon is presented in commission of the crime, or if the victim of a crime is made aware of the presence of a weapon during said commission, ie. "I HAVE A GUN!" (knife, baseball bat, syringe full of AIDS infected blood, whatever...)

If the victim of a crime is unaware of the presence of a weapon, that weapon does not add to their duress, nor does it make them more likely to concede to the further demands of the person allegedly committing the crime.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

You have no evidence of this, you are regressing to a confirmation bias.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Rynar: Are you saying that there's no evidence these people plotted to kill a law enforcement official and plant explosives at the funeral procession, or that even if they did those things, there's still no evidence that they're terrorists?

I consider any group of people plotting to kill U.S. citizens terrorists. Fault me in that I trust the FBI and other government institutions to actually be conducting raids based on good intelligence and/or physical evidence. I'm young and still hold ideals!

I will freely admit to a bias held against any fundamentalist religious group. In my experience, they have always been the ones to promote and carry out acts of violence.

I would like to see more transparency in what exactly is going on though.

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"I've got twenty ways to tell you shut the f*ck up / nineteen of them are twenty-four bars long / the other one goes: SHUT THE F*CK UP" - Aesop Rock
"There is no God higher than truth." -- Gandhi
Formerly: Tulamian

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm asking you to challenge your own base assertions, and see exactly where that leads you.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

No. I'm saying that we don't know if there is or not, and if there is we don't know the nature of that evidence, spurious or otherwise. Basically, I'm saying don't be prejudicial.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

What? Not liking the groups being called militias? I'm not sure what you are getting at.

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"I've got twenty ways to tell you shut the f*ck up / nineteen of them are twenty-four bars long / the other one goes: SHUT THE F*CK UP" - Aesop Rock
"There is no God higher than truth." -- Gandhi
Formerly: Tulamian

The idea of not necessarily associating terrorism with militias, and not taking the government statement at face value. Basically a plea for skepticism.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Thanks for the clarification!

Science has taught me to be skeptical of everything. I am slightly skeptical here, but given past evidence of violence being comitted by others with similar thought groups, I still think my assessment is reasonable. Which is not to say that all militias are terrorists in my mind, only those that behave in a manner that should classify them as such. Like threatening to kill U.S. citizens. But, I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty, hence the "if" clause of my initial statement. If the feds have enough evidence to convict these guys, then I can't say I'd shed any tears.

I also don't believe everything the government says (Heck, having been lied to by them for my whole life has certainly killed that), but only time will tell.

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"I've got twenty ways to tell you shut the f*ck up / nineteen of them are twenty-four bars long / the other one goes: SHUT THE F*CK UP" - Aesop Rock
"There is no God higher than truth." -- Gandhi
Formerly: Tulamian

Loki,

But haven't you noticed the ability for the government to find evidence for anything they want to be found true?

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

I'm not that paranoid, yet.

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"I've got twenty ways to tell you shut the f*ck up / nineteen of them are twenty-four bars long / the other one goes: SHUT THE F*CK UP" - Aesop Rock
"There is no God higher than truth." -- Gandhi
Formerly: Tulamian

Then you haven't been exposed to enough information.

Which has killed more innocent people, religious groups (all of them) or governments?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

The nonreligious Communist Soviet Union comes to mind as largest mass murdering of their own people government of all time.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Not quite. China just hid the books better.

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If they hid the books better, how would you know?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."