The Glade 4.0

Except for the last part where Data blows their ship to hell when the force choke starts.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

That was awful.

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Holy shitsnacks!

And except for the part where the star destroyer would switch to their ion cannons and takes down the enterprises shields in seconds. I also enjoy the part where they use the explosions produced from a planet based ion cannon as the images for the enterprises torpedo's. Have a hard time believing that those would be anywhere near equivalent.

I like both Star Wars and Star Trek, but hate fan boy videos such as this one. The enterprise would be completely out matched by a star destroyer.

It's funny to me to hear anybody compare the two, which is why I posted the video, because it's funny.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

It actually is really funny. There's nothing wrong with a humorous comparison.

However, if you're interested by a serious comparison (and quite frankly I think that the irony of a bunch of people who enjoy geeky pursuits of all sorts deriding that to be hilarious in itself) then you need to do it from a scientific standpoint; if you don't it just becomes a shouting match. In fact, refusing to compare it on this basis is pretty much a tacit admission that you don't like the results.

Don't get me wrong, I do prefer SW to ST. However, that isn't why I think the Empire would kick the Federation's ***. It's because of the observational evidence. I also like neo BSG better than ST, but quite frankly the Federation would beat the tar out of the Twelve Colonies without trying and the Enterprise would make mincemeat of Galactica.

In any case, the fact of the matter is that regardless of how you feel about an objective, scientific comparison of sci fi universes, that's the only way to evaluate real life situations (again, except for comic purposes).

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Right, such as transport some torpedoes to the enemy's power core or command center.

Use bioengineering to destroy the midochlorians of the emperor, create an addictive game whose neural feedback decimates your crew, transfer Moriatory to your computer's network, have Data integrate with any of your systems, use a cloaked ship to beam an away team to your command deck, create an unstable warp field generator and just lob it, anywhere in your fleet. Or just wait till the Empire pisses off one guy and goes the way of the Hussnak.

Honestly the only advantages Star Wars has is speed and presenting much much much larger targets.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Ahh, so the Federation will just use their magic, huh?

When have we ever seen the Federation transport a torpedo into anything? Why don't they use this tactic against all the various opponents they encounter? It would make it a lot easier to defeat them.

As for Q, we don't know what Q's limitations are, we don't see any reason to think he'll show up to save the Federation, or that he actually can do anything. There's no good reason to think a Jedi couldn't just neutralize his powers. Hell, he probably engineered the entire conflict in the first place. Q is a plot device. He's not an asset of the Federation and even bringing him into the discussion is simply admitting the Federation has no chance.

Every one of your arguments has been tried elsewhere on the net - and failed miserably.

Oh, that's right. They can't because transporters are foiled by almost everything: ECM jamming, shields, dense materials, radiation, a host of things.

As for your other silly "tactics" how do they even know what midichlorians are? How will they even find the Emperor on Coruscant, or even find Coruscant int he first place? Federation Warp drive takes 70 years to cross the galaxy while Hyperdrive can cross it in hours; days t the outside. How long will it take to develop some wonder weapon to destroy the Emperor's force powers, and even if they do, how will that stop the galaxy-spanning Empire from destroying the few-hundred planet Federation with simple military power?

You can't just "beam an away team to the command deck from a cloaked ship" for the reasons already stated about shields, not to mention the extremely dense armor of ISDs. We know that thye have unbelievably strong materials because a Super Star Destroyer or Death Star would collapse of its own mass as soon as it tried to accelerate without them. I would also point out that cloaking devices exist in the SW universe and there are therefore presumably countermeasures to the same. The "ST effects are magically immune to SW sensors" argument is bunk.

As for "unstable warp field generators", quantify the effects. I see none here, nor even any mention of such a device. Until you do it does zilch. Where do we even see such a device? They regularly have these things laying around? Why don't they actually ever use them on the enemies we do see them face? They just refuse to use fleet-destroying weapons they happen to have to make it sporting?

All you're doing is creating an OJ Simpson defense of whatever silly tactics you can think up off the top of your head, assuming they'll work despite the fact that A) the equipment doesn't exist B) We don't know if it's even possible to make the equipment C) the Federation deosn't even know that things like midichlorians exist D) couldn't just magically get to the Emperor or whatever their target is anyhow with their relatively slow hyperdrive and worst of all E) never doing these things when we do see them fighting.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Who mentioned Q? Thanks for that strawman though, its appreciated by someone I guess.

Unstable warp fields have been mentioned several times and was the entire focus of one episode.

Transporters are foiled by, shields, several hundred kilometers of rock, and specific kinds of radiation.

Since everyone in the ship would be a fine paste as soon as they accelerated its more like that Star Wars has an inertial dampening system than their materials are extraordinarily dense. At lease I don't see their building materials be dense enough to equate with several hundred kilometers of planet (unless the artificial gravity on board is just gravity) in Star Wars.

I am sure these have failed in your eyes but you might want to take the Star Destroyer out of them next time.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

You mentioned that if they piss someone off, they'd be wiped out just like the Hussnak. The only individual I know of that could be pisse off and then even have a chance of wiping out a race in the ST universe is Q, or another member of his society. If you mean someone else, be more specific. Your vagueness does not make me guilty of a strawman.



That's nice. Show me some sort of quantification.



Concession accepted. Of course, you've edited out ECM jamming and dense/unusual materials.. despite the fact that in Star Trek: Insurrection the presence (mere presence in the ground, not people being in a cave made of it) of something called Kelvenite prevented transporter use, as did... JAMMING! Yes, the Enterprise crew utilized "transport inhibitors", which apparently are so easy to construct that they are readily available in numbers and small and portable enough to be placed manually.

Then of course there's jamming from natural sources such as the ion storm in Nemesis which is going to prevent transporting, and then we have Wrath of Khan in which, despite the fact that neither ship had shields in the Nebula battle, neither one tried to transport a borading party, much less any sort of explosive aboard the other vessel.

The bottom line is that transporters are a convenience, not a weapon.



Obviously they have intertial compensators. However the engines can't also be affected by the field or else the inertia they use to move the ship would be nullified as well. Therefore, whatever anchors the engines to the ship must be strong enough to withstand the amount of force being used to propel the ship at those speeds.

As for you "not seeing" it, the sites I've already link demonsrate the power of SW weapons. Most warships in the SW universe are armored against some degree of turbolaser fire even if their shields fail. In order to be armored to a useful degree, the materials must be of comparable strength, density, and thermal tolerance to what's needed to withstand the acceleration.

We also see this in ANH; the Death Star is repeatedly hit by kiloton-range X-wing energy blasts, and something gets set on fire. Yet the Death Star isn't significantly affected by these or even by the proton torpedo hits that don't enter the exhaust port other than some localized damage. To withstand such weapons without more than the trivial effecs we see, it must be made of truely incredible materials.



Maybe once you can provide some sort of analysis that disputes actual calculations provided by others who've put considerable time and effort into this passtime, you'll have a point.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Really the biggest mistake you're making is assuming that ST science is better/further progressed than SW science. Most of these are simple mistakes, such as the fact that the only thing that's special about data is he looks human, there are an untold number of androids in SW that are equivalent to him. SW ships also come equipped with shields but also have armor plating in most cases, giving them a distinct advantage in a fire fight. Cloaking devices exist in SW, and are frankly much better than the ones in ST (as they also mask emissions, which ST cloaking devices do not).

Hell, even the fact that the Death Star exists proves that SW's science capabilities are far higher than ST. Unless there's something somewhat similar in ST (I really have no idea, maybe in a book or something?). I don't recall anything that can explode planets and suns like exist in the SW universe.

The SW universe is literally hundreds if not thousands of years older and more advanced than ST. Comparing the two is hard to due just because of that.

Um... why do you guys keep trying to use Science as a way to compare the Fantasy world to the Science Fiction one? SW breaks the rules of physics so often it isn't even funny. It also has magical wizards.

You cannot compare a fantasy world to a sci-fi one using any metric, and using science to do so is patently absurd. Equally absurd on both sides, mind you, but absurd nonetheless.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Both worlds are Sci-Fi.

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Holy shitsnacks!

BZZZT incorrect, Jonny, tell him what he would have won.


Edit: I guess it's more a matter of opinion. I don't consider Space Opera to be science fiction.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Neither is a fantsy universe (although SW does include some fantasy in the form of the Force, ST is equally guilty with things like Troi). Both are Science Fiction.

ST breaks the rules of physics at least as often as SW does.

You certainly can compare them using science. It's only "patently absurd" in the sense that A) the comparison is meaningless outside its own entertainment value and B) both exhibit abilities that, to the best of our knowledge, are impossible, but there's nothing at all absurd about observing phenomenon and then drawing conclusions about their capabilities based on what we observe.

It may be silly to engage in the exercise in the first place, but no more silly than any of the other forms of entertainment that so many of us at this website enjoy.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

No, he's pretty much dead on with that. Both are sci fi that also involve elements of fantasy.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

...

I can't believe you're seriously making that claim.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Neither Universe is really good at "Hard Sci-Fi" where the rules of physics are respected.

SW is full of neo-mystical bullshit, and Trek is full of Treknobabble.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Yes, but Roddenberry, dickhead idealogue that he was, may he rest in peace, at least attempted to set his world in the physical world we live in and have similar rules and laws.

George Lucas, dickhead control freak that he is, made no such attempt because it wasn't a core of his universe at all.

The worlds in which each operate cannot be cross-compared.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

You can't? A universe with beings that just "adapt" by magic, totally violating Conservation of Energy? A superbeing with magical powers? A psychic on the ship's crew? Self-replicating mines (conservation of matter, anyone)? Shall we go on?

ST just tries to have a scientific look and feel. TOS isn't as bad in this regard because we see less of this nonsense and because they don't try to come up with scientific sounding technobabble explainations, but it still does it.

Really, anything from TNG on is a platform for Gene Roddenberry's socialistic political ideas or continuation of the series to milk it for profit (which is perfectly ok, nothing wrong with making a profit). It's not, however, any more scientific that SW.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Sure they can. I cited an entire website that does just that. You can't just arbitrarily proclaim that they can't be compared. The fact that they display capabilities we don't would just indicate they've discovered additional physical laws, not that any we know of don't apply.

As for Roddenberry, he may have been attempting to show a world consistent with ours, but he actually did a pitiful job. Probably because he was a dickhead idealogue, which would explain the bombastic sermonizing present in so many ST products (although thankfully not all).

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Sure they can. Their technology, while different, can have the same set of physical laws applied to both series in the absence of said laws inside the series proper.

We can take the action of certain weapons and phenomena, extrapolate from those results, and compare.

Its a fun intellectual exercise. Nothing more.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Speaking of fun exercises we can have lots of fun looking at the apparent inability of the Federation to differentiate between theoretical and applied science, or adhere to any sort of decent engineering standards!

Not to mention their apparent inability to refrain from putting children on their warships exploratory vessels.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

All of those are explained quite well within the vagaries of "science" as it exists in Star Trek canon.

SW canon does nothing to explain similar fantastical capabilities beyond "they're fantastical," essentially.



Except that you literally can't. Why? Because one doesn't deal with the physics at all.

Using DE's quoted physicist or whatever, he's attempting to use relative sizes of prop asteroids being destroyed by pretend lazer guns to measure energy. No physics are ever even mentioned in that scene. Therefore, he's basing entire assumptions as to size, mass, energy outputs, etc. on what the art department decided to use in an SFX shot.

Meanwhile, on ST, we could probably find any number of episodes dealing with moving, hauling, destroying, or altering asteroids, planetoids, etc. that actually (albeit in a fictional way) discuss the physics of the situation.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

So it's really not scientific at all; it's simply dealing with some made-up science that doesn't really exist. In other words, no different from Star Wars.



So what?



Phsyics don't need to be mentioned in the dialogue in order to measure what kind of energy it would take to produce the effects we're seeing on the screen. It also doesn't matter what thoughts were going through the heads of the SFX crew; they showed what they showed. In fact, dismissing the comparison on that basis is rather amusing since Industrial Light and Magic has done plenty of SFX for both series.



Such as? Sure, you can find episodes where they seem to be discussing things in scientific terminology, but they can't even use the terms right half the time, or stay consistent between episodes and movies. Hell, in ST V a photon torpedo hits the ground a few yards from Kirk and doesn't hit him and in other movies and shows we see multi-megaton yields. They're not discussing the physics; they're just tossing terminology around.

Seriously, we don't need the characters in either series to talk at all to be able to compare them, nor do we need to consider the meta-series matter of the SFX team. We just look at them as if they were documentaries and apply our understanding of science and an objective observational mindset.

If you don't enjoy that or don't want to do so, that's fine. No one's holding a gun to your head.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

From the forums on SD.Net.

In a thread about the Galactic Empire vs. The Imperium of Man:

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Holy shitsnacks!