The Glade 4.0

Taskiss its also the sign of an observer. Someone who watches how others react without tainting the results. Consider yourself my guinea pig.

*rolls eyes* /sarcasm off

I'm very much on the fence. I can see both sides of the issue, thats the problem. I offer the question, let people debate it and see what arguments resonate with me. Thats not the sign of a troll. One of the benefits/curses of being able to examine issues from all sides is indecision.

And a bunch of random and anonymous folks will help you reach a personal decision..

Sure.

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In time, this too shall pass.

It gets better with time, I was like this most of the time when I was younger.

Eventually I got to the point of not caring about the sides that were trying to rip me off or were only in it for themselves.

You have to learn how to spot the soulless self interest angles. They can be very good at deception and making it look otherwise.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

So in other words, you don't want to make a decision yourself but want to find fault with the decisions of those who do?

Don't you take Karate or something like that? How well does this work when you spar?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Depends on the school, some schools make the decision for you by telling you the counter to use to every move likely to be made against you. Decision is made for you, like a Catechism.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Why would I discount an opinion or point of view based soley on how well I know someone? If I only sought out the opinions of those I choose to associate with then I would only get like-minded individuals. Likewise asking on a kink-oriented message board you get a specific focus.

On the other hand, offering it up here, I tend to get a nice spectrum of opinions.

Yes, DE, I do practice martial arts. The general rule is that you go as hard as the other guy does. You do risk injury but if you harm your training partner, you rob yourself of training time.

In the kinky realm, the issue is that often one person takes on a dominant role and the other a submissive role--the risks associated by the parties are unequal.

To my mind, thats ok as long as its consentual, my real issue is someone chosing to make unhealthy decisions. If someone chooses to be cut, but contributing factors to that are say, past childhood trauma, or worse if the person will consent to anything because of fear of losing the one they're involved with is that ok?

Fictional Example: I'm afraid of losing my girlfriend. She's really into cutting people--its not my thing but she uses my fear of abandonment to convince me to proceed by various forms of emotional blackmail. Or even if she's not deliberately manipulative. What if she knows I'm consenting out of fear of loss even though I have no desire to do it? Is she obliged to deny herself something she likes because she knows I'm agreeing for the wrong reasons?

Riov, what if it she wanted to brand you instead of just scar you a little? You do realize that she is putting the equivalent of Kilroy was here on your skin?

Its fictional okay, treat the answer as fictional, but accept the advice.

I'm an old fogey, cutting yourself is a mental illness, cutting others is also a mental illness, a symptom of a control oriented personality, and you may befriend the people who choose to do it, but never allow them to do it to you.

You'll ignore this but I'm going to say it anyway. Cut her loose, tell her the risk of infection and the scarring freaks you out. She can keep playing those games with future boyfriends if she so chooses, but you won't be doing it anymore.

Now to say the next part, perhaps less than delicately.

Go celibate, by choice, for the next six months. Stop accepting seriously damaged women in your life and move on. Turning one of the old saws around, you do not need a woman to complete you. Focus on your martial arts, focus on your daughter, focus on your job, wrist one off occasionally. Stop being the passive victim boyfriend and find yourself.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Looking at the merits of the different opinions and settling on one as most convincing to you does not preclude recognizing the merits of the other other positions. It also does not preclude you changing your mind if another position becomes more convincing later.



While interesting, this isn't what I was getting at. What I was getting at was that if more than one technique might be appropriate in a given situation you do not avoid action because you are unwilling to commit to either.



I'm aware of that, and I was not attempting to compare martial arts to kink, or even address the question purely in terms of kink.



Ethically, in terms of both having a healthy relationship and general ethics if she knows you are consenting because of some overwhelming mental pressure you feel to consent, yes, she is obliged to deny herself.

However, if you are consenting essentially of your own free will, even though you don't want to, she is then under no such obligation (although it would still be praiseworthy of her to do so).

Since she cannot read your mind she must act based on the best information available to her, assuming she wishes to act ethically.

You are really the only one that can answer this. Are you acting of your own free will or are you subordinated by your relationship issues so much that you cannot reasonably be said to be consenting? If the latter, fair enough, but if that is the case you are a danger to yourself and need professional help.

I'm not trying to call it one way or the other, although if I HAD to call it I think you are capable of making reasonable adult decisions ven if the wisdom of those decisions might be questionable. I don't, however, know you well enough to say that I have any serious confidence in that guess.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Just for the record, my dilema is actually the reverse. (thought not cutting, I'm not going to go into specific kinks) but I have someone asking me to perform some various high-risk actions on them, including some fairly dark fantasy type stuff. I have no real objection to the activities themselves and am ok opening the door to some of this stuff. I also have no specific knowledge that she has suffered any trauma in the past though I obviously dont know every detail of her life story. (I suspect most kinks are spawned out of some particular incident) The fact that may or may not have complimentary fantasies (that I'm leery of exploring) is my issue. I don't know if she's choosing to bring this stuff up because she thinks i'd like it, and is doing this to keep me or because it is somehow cathartic to replay such things with someone she trusts or its somehow empowering to turn what was a negative into a positive.

There are much deeper issues here than just the ethics of consenting adults.

The ethics of consenting adults, however, is the topic. I don't know what "deeper issues" you're referring to here, or how they pertain to the topic at hand.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I would recommend you not engage very deeply in such play. Not because I think there's any emotional risk, but simply because I don't think you have the requisite practice in it. It would probably be best for you to find your local leather and lace group and get some pointers.

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It's a better method than deciding what you want to believe then focusing on the data and opinions that support it. Asking a group of people "How do YOU feel about this, and why?" is a good way to figure out what questions you need to ask yourself.

I'll state my opinion plainly: I believe an adult should be able to consent to damn near anything under non-coercive circumstances, even if other people think it's crazy. One of the ways the current law works is that only rational people can give consent, and wanting to be, say, branded, is an indication that you're not rational. Same thing with people who have a desire to have limbs amputated. . Certainly it's more extreme than piercing or tattooing, but hey, I'm not the one who has to live with the consequences. Imagine applying that logic to ANY choice you don't like... "Hey, if you don't understand why it's not right to eat meat and want to do it anyway you're not rational enough to make your own dietary choices".

Anyway, I think the appropriate treatment/punishment for being crazy enough to want to be hurt is... being hurt.

The problem with this example is that a person claiming that someone is not rational because of a desire to harm themselves isn't just saying it because they don't like it; they're saying it because the person is harming themselves, and in a direct, measureable way. (not a complex-cause thing of "there's a vague long-term correlation between X and Y that may or may not cause it in any particular case). They also aren't doing it because they think it isn't right; they're doing it because of the nature of the consequences (i.e. severe and irreversible).

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I think there is a degree of low self esteem issues at work in much of sexual fetishism. A desire to be hurt, degraded, or taken advantage of, COULD Be viewed as some form of mental issue. Perpetuating those behaviors or rewarding them could prevent a person from ever getting 'better' --
on the other hand such fetishism could be a way of taking a negative and making it into something good. (ie, so-and-so hurt me, but I've turned that into something I like)

I just dont know the psychology of it.

That may be the case some of the time. Whether it's most or not I don't think anyone here is able to say. If the behavior only manifests itself in sexual preference and doesn't cause any problems in life though, it's hard to classify it as a problem.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This thread has become awesome; i may need to get a brandig done.

A celtic cross or something.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Drinking alcohol, smoking, eating fast food regularly are all quantifiable harm to the self, is everyone that does this not rational enough to make their own decisions?

Of course the most important factor is that is no one else's business if person X wishes to harm person X to ANY degree.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

No, they don't result in quantifiable harm to the self. You can't identify any specific amount of harm a person suffers from doing any of those actions.



Yes it is.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

In the last quote, I think the operative word is 'wishes'. Lets say I wish to harm Emarnieh. I can easily justify my actions to myself, may dream about it, may make plans (by myself, not a conspiracy) to do specific damage to Elmarnieh. As long as I do nothing to execute these plans, fulfill my wish, it is no one else's business.

Now if I were to kneecap him, shove a broomstick up his rear, hot-glue red fuzzy material to him and tattoo "TICKLE ME" across his forehead, damn right that is someone else's business and not just Elmarnieh's. I would have have committed felony assault and battery as well as copyright infringement. I would deserve to go to jail and be forced to make restitution to Elmarnieh.

So, in this case, I believe Elmarnieh is right.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

What does any of this have to do with Elmo wanting to harm himself?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I say anything is fair game up to the point of unconsciousness. Because after that, they can't exactly say no or stop anymore.

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Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick

I would have a problem with the assumption that someone was rational if they decided to allow harm to be done to them, given the definition of harm as what DE described as #3 in this post:
viewtopic.php?p=56577#p56577

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In time, this too shall pass.

Oh, Elmo wants to harm himself? Far be it from me to violate his right to self-determination.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Actually, it seems to me that he's been asking for it...

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In time, this too shall pass.

You cannot identify what "quantifiable" harm results from self amputation, mutilation or whatever activity. There is no way to quantify the "harm" done. You could create an arbitrary definition of what constitutes harm, but it wouldn't have any real value, not one that you could make a good case for it to be substantial and absolute in some important way.

If I cut of my arm, that's it. My arm is gone. If I damage my liver with alcohol, I damage my liver with alcohol. You might be able say that "in one case, one person lost an extremity." Ok, so what? Is that harmful in and of itself?



[
Yes it is.[/quote][/quote]

Really? Why?

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones