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Aizle
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:55 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle:

I will have to disagree of late, especially on the quality of their news reporting. All of their reporters and reports assume a few basic things that may or may not be true:

1. The United States needs nationalized, public option healthcare.
2. Anthropogenic global warming is fact.
3. That Juan Williams is in any way credible.


Interesting. One thing that I sometimes have trouble discerning is what things that I listen to is NPR (NATIONAL public radio) and what is MPR (MINNESOTA public radio) as when they tag it, it very often sounds similar. I haven't really gotten the same impression on healthcare from what I've heard lately. I wonder if there are localized differences that are more pronounced depending on where you live.
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Khross
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:02 am 
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Aizle:

I'm talking mostly about Morning Edition and All Things Considered, as well as NPR News and Notes. And, sadly, it actually makes me rather angry to have to put Juan Williams on that list. Prior to Obama's election, he was probably one of the better, if not the best, Black voices in journalism. He was also significantly less enamored of big government policies. His criticisms of African-American and Black social norms in Enough was stellar and spot on. Sure, he leans a little left on some things and a little right on others, but it was mostly a moderate, centrist wash with an eye toward practicality prior to Obama's election. Now, he's just another mouthpiece for the Obama Administration.

The criticisms, insights, and observations that made him a well respected journalist and cultural theorist have gone out the window.

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:09 am 
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I haven't heard much of Juan recently, is there a particular news story you could point me toward so I could sample what you're observing?
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Khross
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:14 am 
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Aizle:

There was one earlier this week on Healthcare reform. And pretty much anything he's done on News and Notes for the last 8 months.

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Vindicarre
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:15 am 
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Talya wrote:
Khross wrote:
All of their reporters and reports assume a few basic things that may or may not be true:
...
3. That Juan Williams is in any way credible.



Vindicarre wrote:
Juan Williams


Now i'm biased against the rest of Vindicarre's list of people I don't care about. :)


Yup, I laughed too; while I disagree with Khross' evaluation, he has an informed opinion that led him to his position. Sadly, you appear not to.

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Aizle
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:39 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle:

There was one earlier this week on Healthcare reform. And pretty much anything he's done on News and Notes for the last 8 months.


Well, I just listened to 3 of his reports on NPR's website, one in which he was talking about Obama speaking at the NAACP. I have to disagree with your assessment. I found his reporting to be factual, balanced and quite neutral overall.
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DFK!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:47 am 
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Aizle:

What part of Stossel's second paragraph displays bias?

Should I take your continued non-response to this question as agreement that you were incorrect?

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:59 am 
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DFK! wrote:
Aizle:

What part of Stossel's second paragraph displays bias?

Should I take your continued non-response to this question as agreement that you were incorrect?


No, I believe that Stossel is trying to stir the pot on something that isn't there. Everyone is calling it health care reform. Conservatives and Liberals alike. The project indeed actually IS reform. Now you can argue that you like this reform plan or that plan and the merits of them, but at the end of the day his comments are a strawman to try and get people riled up about something that's completely inconsequential instead of actually discussing the meat of the issue.
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Khross
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:18 am 
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Aizle:

Except, it isn't reform. It's restructuring. Improvement is very much implicated in reform. Something must be made "better" for the actions to be "reform". And, currently, the "better" of the healthcare debate and situation is entirely subjective. Will still be reform if the plan performs as the CBO suggests?

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Talya
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:21 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Yup, I laughed too; while I disagree with Khross' evaluation, he has an informed opinion that led him to his position. Sadly, you appear not to.



I have never listened to the guy, so no, I have no opinions on him, informed or otherwise. I could base my position on Khross's informed opinion, but I don't care enough to have a position on Juan Williams. We don't get NPR here, and most american news is horrible to watch. We get all of Buffalo NY's network channels here, and they're all nails-on-chalkboard irritating (not because of any particular bias, just because of a lack of...professionalism, i guess), when I decide to catch news south of the border. CNN's not always terrible, but it's still not great. There's always far too much sensationalism and far too little actual information.

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Aizle
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:38 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle:

Except, it isn't reform. It's restructuring. Improvement is very much implicated in reform. Something must be made "better" for the actions to be "reform". And, currently, the "better" of the healthcare debate and situation is entirely subjective. Will still be reform if the plan performs as the CBO suggests?


I understand what you're saying. But you, like Stossel are arguing semantics rather than the actual issue. Further, if you believe that calling it reform is assumptive, making a stink about the language is performing the same assumption that Stossel's claiming but in the opposite direction claiming it isn't "reform" and worse. Those are value judgements, which is NOT what I want to hear coming from a journalist. Because those actually working on the issue (senators and representatives) are all refering to it as healthcare reform, the news media repeating that is NOT adding value judgements to it.
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DFK!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:55 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Aizle:

Except, it isn't reform. It's restructuring. Improvement is very much implicated in reform. Something must be made "better" for the actions to be "reform". And, currently, the "better" of the healthcare debate and situation is entirely subjective. Will still be reform if the plan performs as the CBO suggests?


I understand what you're saying. But you, like Stossel are arguing semantics rather than the actual issue.


Except that the meanings of words matter, even if you don't believe they do.

Aizle"Further, if you believe that calling it reform is assumptive, making a stink about the language is performing the same assumption that Stossel's claiming but in the opposite direction claiming it isn't "reform" and worse.[/quote]

So, if Stossel or Khross (and presumably me or others) takes umbrage with the language being bandied about and attempts to use more accurate language, that is both identical to the original issue and more objectionable?

That doesn't make sense. If you were, say, a mayor of a large city who was promoting reform in city dealings and cronyism, that conveys a positive image. If I point out that your "reform" involves only replacement of former bureaucrats with new ones and should thus be called "overhaul" instead, how is that inaccurate or biased? If I were to say that the "reform" was basically "retaliation" or the like, that would be biased the other way.

See, words have meanings. They matter and should be used appropriately. When they aren't, people should expect them to be corrected.

[quote="Aizle wrote:
Those are value judgements, which is NOT what I want to hear coming from a journalist.


Except that every time you ever listen to, watch, or read a journalist, you're getting value judgements, whether you realize it or not. This is always true and cannot be overcome. Therefore, acknowledging it before the viewer/listener/reader so that they are aware of it is critical.

Aizle wrote:
Because those actually working on the issue (senators and representatives) are all refering to it as healthcare reform, the news media repeating that is NOT adding value judgements to it.


Correct, they're not adding value judgements, they're just repeating the judgement applied by the politicians without questioning the underlying language/presumptions. As such, they're failing their responsibility as the 4th Estate.

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:15 am 
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I disagree that it's the responsibility of the news media to correct congress' bad use of English.
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shuyung
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:20 am 
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Which is fine. The news media doesn't have any particular obligations beyond those to their shareholders. Journalists, however, do.

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Diamondeye
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:28 am 
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Aizle wrote:
No, I believe that Stossel is trying to stir the pot on something that isn't there. Everyone is calling it health care reform. Conservatives and Liberals alike. The project indeed actually IS reform. Now you can argue that you like this reform plan or that plan and the merits of them, but at the end of the day his comments are a strawman to try and get people riled up about something that's completely inconsequential instead of actually discussing the meat of the issue.


Except that it's not a strawman issue. It is a fact that it's restructuring and whether that restructuring results in reform remains to be seen. Robert Mugabe can call what he's doing in Zimbabwe "land reform" all day long, but its not an improvement, and the difference to those affected is pretty significant.

If the media were poisting out that the healthcare restructuring is just that, restructuring, and that by calling it reform advocates are essentially just making a prediction about its results, they'd be reporting facts. By leaving that issue untouched they are implicitly coloring the issue.

This is more than just correcting bad English; it's pointing out a fact that has a serious effect on public opinion. If people called it "healthcare dismantling" or something like that, with negative connotations, the media would be jumping and screaming about it.

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DFK!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
This is more than just correcting bad English; it's pointing out a fact that has a serious effect on public opinion. If people called it "healthcare dismantling" or something like that, with negative connotations, the media would be jumping and screaming about it.


Indeed.

In fact, the idea that semantics discussions 1) don't matter at all and/or 2) are irrelevant to the core of any given discussion is inane to me. Semantics discusses the meaning of words. Usurpation of those meanings, or the usurpation of language in general, is a key element in propaganda and "thought control," in the Orwellian sense.


Aizle wrote:
I disagree that it's the responsibility of the news media to correct congress' bad use of English.


And that is the problem. You're attributing word choice to simply faulty use of the words. This is incorrect. The distortion of the language is willful and purposeful.

For example, I'm sure there was a much simpler name Congress could have used for the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. Instead, that called it that so they could say it is the USA PATRIOT ACT or just PATRIOT ACT. That way, anybody who opposes it is 'clearly' not a patriot.

The same is true of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 and "healthcare reform." Who doesn't want affordable healthcare and reform?

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Vindicarre
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:56 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Yup, I laughed too; while I disagree with Khross' evaluation, he has an informed opinion that led him to his position. Sadly, you appear not to.



I have never listened to the guy, so no, I have no opinions on him, informed or otherwise. I could base my position on Khross's informed opinion, but I don't care enough to have a position on Juan Williams. We don't get NPR here, and most american news is horrible to watch. We get all of Buffalo NY's network channels here, and they're all nails-on-chalkboard irritating (not because of any particular bias, just because of a lack of...professionalism, i guess), when I decide to catch news south of the border. CNN's not always terrible, but it's still not great. There's always far too much sensationalism and far too little actual information.


I was referencing this statement:

Quote:
FoxNews ONLY hires this type of ****

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Vindicarre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:00 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
The distortion of the language is willful and purposeful.

For example, I'm sure there was a much simpler name Congress could have used for the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. Instead, that called it that so they could say it is the USA PATRIOT ACT or just PATRIOT ACT. That way, anybody who opposes it is 'clearly' not a patriot.


Now that Obama's going to renew the Act, and change its name to the Justice Act...

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DFK!
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
DFK! wrote:
The distortion of the language is willful and purposeful.

For example, I'm sure there was a much simpler name Congress could have used for the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001. Instead, that called it that so they could say it is the USA PATRIOT ACT or just PATRIOT ACT. That way, anybody who opposes it is 'clearly' not a patriot.


Now that Obama's going to renew the Act, and change its name to the Justice Act...



Well who wants to stand in the way of Justice? Especially Justice handed out by a black president.

A justice-hating racist, that's who.

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Talya
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:

I was referencing this statement:

Quote:
FoxNews ONLY hires this type of ****


Well the **** are certainly the ones everyone quotes and references and hears about...

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Diamondeye
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:

I was referencing this statement:

Quote:
FoxNews ONLY hires this type of ****


Well the **** are certainly the ones everyone quotes and references and hears about...


Oddly enough we hear about those **** primarily from people complaining about them, on this board.

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Uncle Fester
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:34 am 
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Not so much as media bias, but political bias. Nancy Pelosi and co have been tearing up, wringing their hands and wailing over the dangers of health care protesters and their ideologies of violence...where is their concern over the rioting and protesting at the G-20 in Pittsburg?

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Monte
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:39 am 
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Quote:
Aizle:

I will have to disagree of late, especially on the quality of their news reporting. All of their reporters and reports assume a few basic things that may or may not be true:


Hmmm...

Quote:
1. The United States needs nationalized, public option healthcare.


I listen to NPR every day. I have yet to see NPR come out with this position. I have seen journalism accurately report the facts about our current system and where we are headed. I have listened to solid interviews based on a a due amount of skepticism. I have seen lots of people brought in from all sides of the debate. NPR's coverage on this is more reliable than any other source I have seen so far.

Quote:
2. Anthropogenic global warming is fact.


That's just good reporting. Anthropogenic global warming *is* a fact, even if you and others choose not to accpet it.

Quote:
3. That Juan Williams is in any way credible.


What is your beef with Juan Williams?

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Dash
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:40 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle:

I will have to disagree of late, especially on the quality of their news reporting. All of their reporters and reports assume a few basic things that may or may not be true:

1. The United States needs nationalized, public option healthcare.
2. Anthropogenic global warming is fact.
3. That Juan Williams is in any way credible.


Aw come on Juan Williams is a good guy. I dont agree with him often but he's ok.

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