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 Post subject: Are Video Games Art?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Recently, renowned movie critic Roger Ebert (outspoken opponent to the idea that video games cannot be considered art) had this to say on the subject:

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Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool's errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form...

But we could play all day with definitions, and find exceptions to every one. For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist. Yet a cathedral is the work of many, and is it not art? One could think of it as countless individual works of art unified by a common purpose. Is not a tribal dance an artwork, yet the collaboration of a community? Yes, but but it reflects the work of individual choreographers. Everybody didn't start dancing all at once.

One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

...Her next example is a game named "Braid" (above). This is a game "that explores our own relationship with our past...you encounter enemies and collect puzzle pieces, but there's one key difference...you can't die." You can go back in time and correct your mistakes. In chess, this is known as taking back a move, and negates the whole discipline of the game. Nor am I persuaded that I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game. She also admires a story told between the games levels, which exhibits prose on the level of a wordy fortune cookie.

...We come to Example 3, "Flower" (above). A run-down city apartment has a single flower on the sill, which leads the player into a natural landscape. The game is "about trying to find a balance between elements of urban and the natural." Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card. Is the game scored? She doesn't say. Do you win if you're the first to find the balance between the urban and the natural? Can you control the flower? Does the game know what the ideal balance is?


...The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: "No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets."


Link to Full Article

Personally, my opinion is kind of complicated: While I think that video games can include elements of traditional art, a video game as a whole is not necessarily a piece of art in the traditional sense. However, if you consider programming and coding as art, then yes, video games are works of art, as coding is the binding medium used to present the game.


Last edited by Rodahn on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Video Games Art?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:03 pm 
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Video games may contain art (storylines, animation, etc) but are not art themselves. Or putting it another way they are simply a medium.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:59 pm 
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I would say they are art, or could be considered art. They introduce a new element that isn't present in cinema, literature or visual arts: interactivity with the audience. This element may be present in a more limited way in certain other forms of art such as live theatre or perhaps stand-up comedy. The way you let the player interact with the game is itself an art because it requires observation of all the same principles of art, which is just manipulation of elements within the medium to evoke certain emotions or reactions.

We all know what it's like to play a very satisfying game, games that might not have the greatest graphics (visual arts), story (literature) or way the game ties those two elements together (cinema). But the games end up being immensely satisfying because of the feeling of power and immersiveness given to the player simply by the design of how he interacts with the world.

Of course, I'd argue any medium can be an art, simply because art is only the design and arrangement of elements within a medium to convey certain emotional ideas.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:53 am 
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Have you seen half of the movies that come out of Hollywood? Who cares what the hell Roger Ebert thinks about it. He's an old man who doesn't want to change with the times. Let him think whatever he wants.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:56 am 
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Roophus Gunthar wrote:
Have you seen half of the movies that come out of Hollywood? Who cares what the hell Roger Ebert thinks about it. He's an old man who doesn't want to change with the times. Let him think whatever he wants.


I agree with this. I feel video games have become an art over the years.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:14 am 
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I just finished Heavy Rain and I'd definitely say that game was a piece of art. The story and the way it was told was almost on par with a lot of Hollywood blockbusters.

But anyways the question is stupid...who is anyone to define what art is? One of "defining" qualities of art is that you can't define it, if someone sees it as art, then it is.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:29 am 
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Sometimes. In some ways. I also don't think I care what a movie critic has to say on the matter. Especially since he probably doesn't even play games.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:13 am 
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Nevandal wrote:
But anyways the question is stupid...who is anyone to define what art is? One of "defining" qualities of art is that you can't define it, if someone sees it as art, then it is.


While I agree with the open interpretation of art, I think that art is a central characteristic of the human experience, so we as humans have a perfectly valid reason to ask what it is. It is not a question with a clear answer, by any means, but a valid question nonetheless.


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 Post subject: Re: Are Video Games Art?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:32 pm 
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If he considers movies to be a form of art (which I don't know if he does, but my hunch says he likely does) then he's wrong. If he doesn't consider even a movie to be a form of art, then I'd hold what he has to say with a bit more weight.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:36 am 
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All I know is this. Bioshock scared me more than any movie.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:07 pm 
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I have no idea why the ability to interact with something excludes it from being art - any half way decent art school, or art program should include a class on using time/space to make art. There are several artist who make interactive art, and I know of some games that are more art than anything they do.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Video Games Art?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:17 pm 
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Roger Ebert is, as usual, a pretentious and mal-informed wind bag who needs to die in a fire. Even ignoring the video game thing, there is simply some gross ignorance in his statements.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Video Games Art?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Yeah, this is a guy who hates 95% of all CGI.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:58 am 
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Rodahn wrote:
Nevandal wrote:
But anyways the question is stupid...who is anyone to define what art is? One of "defining" qualities of art is that you can't define it, if someone sees it as art, then it is.


While I agree with the open interpretation of art, I think that art is a central characteristic of the human experience, so we as humans have a perfectly valid reason to ask what it is. It is not a question with a clear answer, by any means, but a valid question nonetheless.



I agree. Everyone has a valid reason to ask what it is. Everyone has a valid reason to ask what anything is.


What's 2 + 2?



If someone asked, I'd call them stupid.

To me, the answer to what art is....is as obvious as the answer is 4 to both you and I.



I remember when I was very young I was led to believe art was paintings. Until I learned about sculptures.


I think I've made my point: Roger Ebert is an irrelevant douchebag. He's not even entertaining.

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 Post subject: Re: Are Video Games Art?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:09 am 
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From the front page of PA. Tycho always has something salient to say.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2010/4/21/

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There are many, many replies to Roger Ebert's reeking ejaculate, from measured Judo-inspired reversals of momentum to primal shrieks which communicate rage in a harrowing, proto-linguistic state. Thatgamecompany's Kellee Santiago chose to respond to him, which gave the whole thing a kind of symmetry, seeing as it was her TED speech that drove that wretched, ancient warlock into his original spasm.

That was very polite of her, behaving as though she were one side of a conversation. For what it's worth. Which isn't much, honestly, because this weren't never a dialogue. He is not talking to you, he is just talking. And he's arguing

1. in bad faith,
2. in an internally contradictory way,
3. with nebulously defined terms,

so there's nothing here to discuss. You can if you want to, and people certainly do, but there's no profit in it. Nobody's going to hold their blade aloft at the end of this thing and found a kingdom. It's just something to fill the hours.

Also, do we win something if we defeat him? Does he drop a good helm? Because I can't for the life of me figure out why we give a **** what that creature says. He doesn't operate under some divine shroud that lets him determine what is or is not valid culture. He cannot rob you, retroactively, of wholly valid experiences; he cannot transform them into worthless things.

He's simply a man determined to be on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of the human drive to create, and dreadfully so; a monument to the same generational bullshit that says because something has not been, it must not and could never be.

(CW)TB out.

lying in the reeds


....Oh snap!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:37 pm 
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This was a perfectly-formed response, touching on many of the aspects of Ebert's argument that I too found in error.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Zing!

Are video games "art" in the traditional sense? No.

Are video games there own genre of art? Yes, I could easily see that argued.


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