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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:05 am 
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What would a government issued Vacation be I wonder?

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story. ... z0lXypKeJU

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The European Union has declared travelling a human right, and is launching a scheme to subsidize vacations with taxpayers' dollars for those too poor to afford their own trips.

Antonio Tajani, the European Union commissioner for enterprise and industry, proposed a strategy that could cost European taxpayers hundreds of millions of euros a year, The Times of London reports.

"Travelling for tourism today is a right. The way we spend our holidays is a formidable indicator of our quality of life," Mr. Tajani told a group of ministers at The European Tourism Stakeholders Conference in Madrid on April 15. Mr. Tajani was appointed to his post by Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi.

The plan -- just who gets to enjoy the travel package has yet to be determined -- would see taxpayers footing some of the vacation bill for seniors, youths between the ages of 18 and 25, disabled people, and families facing "difficult social, financial or personal" circumstances. The disabled and elderly can also be accompanied by one other person. The EU and its taxpayers are slated to fund 30% of the cost of these tours, which could range from youth exploring abandoned factories and power plants in Manchester to retirees taking discount trips to Madrid, all in the name of cultural appreciation.

"The commission is literally considering paying people to go on holiday," Mats Persson, of pro-reform think-tank Open Europe, told Britain's News of the World. "In this economic climate, it's astonishing that the EU wants to bribe people with cheap holidays."

Mr. Tajani said the program will be piloted until 2013, and then fully launched.

Intended to instill a sense of cultural pride in Europeans, Mr. Tajani's human-rights travel will also help bridge the continent's north-south divide and pad resorts' business in their off-season, the Times reports.

Northern Europeans will be encouraged to visit southern Europe, and vice versa. Mr. Tajani wants to ensure people's "right to be tourists" remains intact.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story. ... z0lYTwA0B5

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:19 am 
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We will pay for the poor to travel to your country, one way. Do not feel obliged to pay to send them back.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:19 am 
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Micheal wrote:
We will pay for the poor to travel to your country, one way. Do not feel obliged to pay to send them back.
I love you man.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Foot + nuts for this EU guy. He can has nutkick?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:12 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:57 pm 
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I cant remember the last holiday I had. My travel is all for work.

/ sigh

But oh yeah. I can afford a holiday. Because I work instead of taking them.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:48 pm 
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If memory serves me correctly, we had a former poster here who agreed with that sentiment.

This kind of idiocy is nothing new. Saddly it is more and more pervasive, however.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:21 pm 
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I think all of our founding fathers were butt ugly.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:23 am 
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We need to vote for more ugly people.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 pm 
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I need to default on my mortgage and move to Europe so I can vacation and appreciate the culture without having to get a job. This is unbelievable..

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:46 pm 
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What the hell is a vacation? :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Kirra wrote:
I need to default on my mortgage and move to Europe so I can vacation and appreciate the culture without having to get a job. This is unbelievable..


Nah, just wait a few months. You'll see something similar proposed here. As it is, if you default on your mortgage now, the government will keep you in your home and reduce your debt. Shame on all us suckers who bought what we could actually afford, and work to pay the bills.

But don't get upset. It's their right. After all, rights are only whatever can be democratically agreed to by the least bright and laziest among us; as so many here profess to be the epitome of righteous intellectualism.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:06 pm 
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Actually, Q1 2010 was the worst quarter in the history of the country for house foreclosures and banks estimate they've only revisited 10% of extended mortgages.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:47 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Kirra wrote:
I need to default on my mortgage and move to Europe so I can vacation and appreciate the culture without having to get a job. This is unbelievable..


Nah, just wait a few months. You'll see something similar proposed here. As it is, if you default on your mortgage now, the government will keep you in your home and reduce your debt. Shame on all us suckers who bought what we could actually afford, and work to pay the bills.

But don't get upset. It's their right. After all, rights are only whatever can be democratically agreed to by the least bright and laziest among us; as so many here profess to be the epitome of righteous intellectualism.


yea, too bad my husband left me and I got the house and morgage that was affordable with two salaries, but it takes me 3 jobs to afford by myself. Wish I had hindsight on that one. I could easily walk away, but I won't, and I will go to closing having to pay, because everyone wants a deal and won't pay what you need as a bottom line. But I learned from this experience and won't make same mistakes again. My next chapter in life is going to include vacations and fun, that I pay for myself! :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:01 pm 
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Kirra wrote:
yea, too bad my husband left me and I got the house and morgage that was affordable with two salaries, but it takes me 3 jobs to afford by myself.


I think Rynar is referring more to the people who went and bought houses that they knew they could never afford to buy, and then have had the audacity to blame everyone else for having. You know the people making $10.00 an hour who bought a $450,000 house on an ARM that had a short period of 2% interest then bumped up to 12.5% interest rate.

Your situation is no where near a reflection of that occurrence.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:57 pm 
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Darkseige, sounds like we know some of the same (type of) people.

I can't bring myself to feel sorry for them. I had friends telling me to sell my house near the top of market and buy something wonderful, I could afford it (no I couldn't, and I knew it.)

My house is still paid for, around a grand a year in property taxes, and they are all fighting foreclosures. Damn grasshoppers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_an ... rasshopper

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:18 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Kirra wrote:
As it is, if you default on your mortgage now, the government will keep you in your home and reduce your debt.



Now they wouldn't. She isn't an ethnic minority and, due to being a nurse, automatically makes more working full time than would allow her to receive assistance.

Instead, she should reduce to half time so that she meets the dollar threshold, then default.

It's all about timing.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Kirra wrote:
yea, too bad my husband left me and I got the house and morgage that was affordable with two salaries, but it takes me 3 jobs to afford by myself. Wish I had hindsight on that one. I could easily walk away, but I won't, and I will go to closing having to pay, because everyone wants a deal and won't pay what you need as a bottom line. But I learned from this experience and won't make same mistakes again. My next chapter in life is going to include vacations and fun, that I pay for myself! :)


This sounds awfully familiar to my divorce, except for the fact that I was left with far more than just a mortgage and ended up having to sell the place. Was finally able to sell it the week before the foreclosure would have gone through.

There was a silver lining though. This was literally one or two months before the housing bubble burst, and within about four months of selling my place similar places were selling for 75% of what I got. Sucks for the people that bought my place, but was really nice for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:30 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Kirra wrote:
As it is, if you default on your mortgage now, the government will keep you in your home and reduce your debt.



Now they wouldn't. She isn't an ethnic minority and, due to being a nurse, automatically makes more working full time than would allow her to receive assistance.

Instead, she should reduce to half time so that she meets the dollar threshold, then default.

It's all about timing.


She (key word here) isn't an ethnic minority, but she (there it is again) is a member of a protected class. As an aside, I have a fair amount of ancedotal evidence to the contrary of your claims. I know several people who have had their loans restructured who are doing quite well otherwise.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:58 am 
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Foreclosures are so high because everyone is figuring out that there are very few consequences for strategic default. Not that I can blame them too much, I would do the same if I bought a house for $500k in 2005 and found it was worth $200k today. It's really about strength in numbers, it can't really totally destroy your credit if everyone is doing it, because the banks need to loan to someone.

The real problem is all the people who strategically defaulted really haven't learned anything, are back to spending at early 2000s levels, and so will require the government to spend trillions and vut the interest rate to zero to bail them out again in ten years.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:13 am 
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Quote:
the banks need to loan to someone.


In theory yes, but at the moment they are still being rather picky about who that somebody is (if anyone)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:10 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
Foreclosures are so high because everyone is figuring out that there are very few consequences for strategic default. Not that I can blame them too much, I would do the same if I bought a house for $500k in 2005 and found it was worth $200k today. It's really about strength in numbers, it can't really totally destroy your credit if everyone is doing it, because the banks need to loan to someone.


You do not have the right to a profit on your investments. You make a strong argument for the reimplication of debtors prison. And no, it isn't about the strength in numbers. It is about a business turning a profit, and banks are businesses. Loans are offered (or had been) based on ones ability to repay. If someone has demonstrated not only an inability to repay, but also an unwillingness, I wouldn't loan them a nickle. Banks won't either, if they are smart, unless legislatively forced, at which point a system has ben erected which enshrines perverse incentive and moral hazzard as a central pillar, and puts the tax payer on the hook in perpetuity. Your system is unworkable.

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The real problem is all the people who strategically defaulted really haven't learned anything, are back to spending at early 2000s levels, and so will require the government to spend trillions and vut the interest rate to zero to bail them out again in ten years.


No, the real problem is vote buying power mongers.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:16 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Darkseige, sounds like we know some of the same (type of) people.

I can't bring myself to feel sorry for them. I had friends telling me to sell my house near the top of market and buy something wonderful, I could afford it (no I couldn't, and I knew it.)

My house is still paid for, around a grand a year in property taxes, and they are all fighting foreclosures. Damn grasshoppers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ant_an ... rasshopper

Quote:
HE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER
_______________________________

OLD VERSION

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his
house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays
the summer away..

Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!
___________________________


MODERN VERSION

The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long,
building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and
plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and
demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed
while he is cold and starving.

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the
shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable
home with a table filled with food.

America is stunned by the sharp contrast..

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper
is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody
cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green .'

Acorn stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news
stations film the group singing, 'We shall overcome.' Rev. Jeremiah
Wright then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's
sake.

President Obama condemns the ant and blames President Bush, President
Reagan, Christopher Columbus, and the Pope for the grasshopper's plight.


Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that
the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper , and both
call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.


Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act
retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green
bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is
confiscated by the Government Green Czar and given to the grasshopper
.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends
finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house
he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant's old house,
crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house,
now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the
ramshackle, once prosperous and once peaceful, neighborhood.

The entire Nation collapses bringing the rest of the free world with it.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be careful how you vote in 2010.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
You do not have the right to a profit on your investments. You make a strong argument for the reimplication of debtors prison. And no, it isn't about the strength in numbers. It is about a business turning a profit, and banks are businesses. Loans are offered (or had been) based on ones ability to repay. If someone has demonstrated not only an inability to repay, but also an unwillingness, I wouldn't loan them a nickle. Banks won't either, if they are smart, unless legislatively forced, at which point a system has ben erected which enshrines perverse incentive and moral hazzard as a central pillar, and puts the tax payer on the hook in perpetuity. Your system is unworkable.


My "system" is the one that exists, I'm not going to blame people for taking full advantage of what is offered to them. Do you want to put people in prison for, say, divorce too? They did promise "till death do us part," after all.

Expecting the family to pay off their $500k mortgage in the current environment is just absurd. The foreclosure only stays on your credit report for 7 years! Even if we assume that the foreclosure completely destroys your credit, which it doesn't, it would STILL be worth it. Given the interest rate on typical mortgages in this position, you're basically writing yourself a check for $50,000 every year for the next 15 years with your strategic default. I think that's worth 7 years of not being able to get any kind of loan. Hell, you'll probably get to live in the home for at least another year payment-free while the foreclosure process proceeds, and that's assuming the bank even bothers to foreclose on you at all. Some people have managed to just stop paying with no repercussions because the bank has so much unsold inventory it doesn't see the point of paying a bunch of lawyer/court costs just to stack up more of it. At least by letting you squat there they keep the property maintained and protected from things like metal thieves that love to strip all the copper and aluminum from empty foreclosed properties.

So yes, a family in this position would have to be utter idiots not to default. Sure it's unethical, but this is business, being "moral" just makes you a loser. You think the bank was being ethical when they sold them that mortgage in the first place? They expected housing prices to keep going up, so they could foreclose on them after 10% of the loan term and reap both the interest payments AND the appreciation.

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No, the real problem is vote buying power mongers.


Politicians are vote buying power mongers by default. When your existence as a politician depends on having the most votes, anyone who is not won't be in politics for long.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Xequecal:

Actually, there are laws to cover strategic defaults. They generally fall under fraud.

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