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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Possible. I don't see them doing that though. I'm losing faith in their ability to provide fun, compelling, well-written content.

Seems all they seem to care about anymore is PvP.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Müs wrote:
The question becomes though... "Why do 25's if 10's give the same loot?"

And its not an elitist question at all. If there's no reward for something, why do it? Especially if you can get the same rewards for something *vastly* easier.

I like 10's generally better myself. But I can't help but think that this will be disastrous for 25M guilds.

Unless... You can do 10's for progression, and then go in after stuff's on farm and reap the 25 loot whirlwind on the same lockout. Take for example ICC.

Wing one, you do marrowgar, DW, Gunship, and DBS in 25, and then split... no wait, you'd have only one 10m from that, cause the other 15 guildies would be on the same tag... that doesn't work either.

Lame.


I had the exact opposite reaction. This is the attitude they're trying to combat. There are so many people struggling to get a 25 man together for gear. ONLY for gear. When they really just enjoy the 10's.

They've stated they will make the difficulty as similar as is possible, and that basically, you can do the one you want. If you're in a strong 25 that raids 5 nights a week and are badasses, do 25's. If you're in a 10 with a bunch of friends and you only did 25's for loot, now you only have to do the 10's. Everyone wins.

The people that want to raid every day can just level 2 85's, and run 10's with one and 25's with another. No problem there.

Cataclysm is turning out to be just that, it's changing a lot of core game mechanics (gear stats, anyone), and once it releases the WoW landscape will be very, very different. I think a group that has gamed together since 2000 will probably adjust just fine.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:02 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Only thing I can think of is it seems like you can progress as far as you can on 25s then switch to 10 mans and do the rest. That might be an option?


They've stated that you won't be able to do this now.

25m raids are essentially being killed off in Cata. There's multiple reasons why this change does that: it's far easier to field 10 quality players than 25, 10 mans will always be easier due to limited spots compared to 25's.

Unless there's a rather large disparity in drops, or something nice from 25's that you can't get from 10's, I suspect 25 mans will only be done by occasional pugs and possibly the hard core raiders for epeen. To even make drops even 10's would drop 2 and 25's would drop 5. I suspect you'd have to make 25's drop 7+ to make people really care about the difference. I'm not really sure what kind of badge difference would work, but gold difference wouldn't matter to anyone at this point unless it was an order of magnitude higher.

I'm not broken up about it, I preferred 20's to 40's back in the day, and I prefer 10's to 25's now. 10 for me is really the perfect spot. I just can't see how they can say that they'll be of similar difficulty. There's 30 classes in this game, and unless they homogenize the hell out of everyone this expansion, you'll always be missing out on some buff or debuff in 10 compared to 25.

This will also likely have a huge effect on dps only classes, as being a multi-roll class was already a big advantage, but will be huge for 10 mans now. Being able to change the number of healers, tanks and dps every fight where you need to is huge if there's going to be any sort of difficulty attached to 10's.

At this point I really suspect raids in cata to be the easiest ones so far.

I do like the fact that they're trying to make multiple smaller raids instead of one big one now though. Being able to raid something even if you're saved to a fail raid will be nice.

Overall I'm not against the change, but some people will be upset with it. I think there's more -'s than +'s though.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:35 pm 
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Simple fix to it. Make the lockouts not stack.

Done.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:02 pm 
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I read an interesting idea someone had previously where you make a pseudo lockout just for badges. Killed Festergut this week once already? No more frost emblems for you from him! Loot differences may still need to be worked out somehow, but that alone would cut down on a big "need" to farm 10s and 25s both if you hate one or the other.

In talking with my guildleader some, we had an idea that this change may actually help our 25s team: we now overrecruit and run a 25s and a 10s each week, with some varied attendance between the two. In this scenario, our 25s would never end up a 22 or 23 man raid as it sometimes does now, and class/specs can be better optimized if that is ever an issue (likely not for normal modes). We couldn't really do that now since 10s would be something of a demotion. Alts would probably need to be put to use more in non-alt raids, but for a couple of my guildies, especially the officers, that is a nonissue.

If we stick to our current raid plans of a 25 raid, this also gives us the option of splitting into two 10s on weeks that have iffy attendance. Or like I said earlier, what I expect to be the case most of the time, one 25s team in SSC and one or two 10s in TK. I don't think we have to worry about ToC-like instances -- a lot of people forget that with ToC came an unrelated battleground, which as I understand it took time from the developers to develop. No one's happy with ToC (and here is where we can joke that no one's happy with Isle of Conquest, either! :p) but it wasn't given the development time and focus that Ulduar or ICC were. I don't think you can really say the failed at making ToC if this is indeed the case... dumb Tirion and the Faction Champs writing aside. ;)

I don't know if there will always be two concurrent raids, though, or if there will even be such a thing as clearly delineated raiding tiers separated by a pretty big gap in gear quality.

A lot remains to be seen. How the community ends up seeing 10s vs 25s in the month or two that follows Cataclysm release will be telling. Sure would suck to decide to whittle your 25 man guild down to a 10s guild only to have 25s remain the clearly most prestigious by a mile, 10 man guilds looked down upon by so many as they are now.

You make a good point about dual specced hybrids, Joc. I didn't think of that, but it's going to be really true for hard modes especially. I'm our switch man to adjust healer amount on all our raids and it can make quite a difference.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:34 am 
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awesome... so I will not get to raid. once again... douchebags.

The guild has a rule of thumb; do not lock yourself to tags for content we are doing, unless it is a guild raid. So I will not be able to jump into a PUG raid, or else I can get locked out of content; but I will not be able to get into 10 man raids, being slightly less experienced, I occasionally get onto the 25 man group (on Monday night ToC mainly), So I have just been relegated back to sitting with a thumb up my *** waiting to be invited to do something.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:32 am 
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darksiege wrote:
The guild has a rule of thumb; do not lock yourself to tags for content we are doing, unless it is a guild raid.


Most guilds have a similar rule, though generally they allow you to pug something after their raid week is over. My current guild raids tues-thurs, any time after that you can do whatever you want, you just can't do 25m ICC before that.

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We're continuing to refine the badge/emblem and PvP point systems in Cataclysm and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

Our primary goal when approaching badges in Cataclysm is to address a lot of the confusion that comes with these currency systems. To that end we're changing badges to a more straightforward point system, similar to the ones we've used for a while for Arenas and Battlegrounds. There will be a total of four types of points you can earn in Cataclysm (two for PvE and two for PvP), and these will remain the same even as we introduce new content.

Here's the breakdown:

PvE
Hero Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most dungeons. (most like the current Emblem of Triumph)
Valor Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvE points. Maximum cap to how many you can own, as well as a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from Dungeon Finder daily Heroic and from raids. (most like the current Emblem of Frost)

PvP
Honor Points -- Low-tier, easier-to-get PVP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, but no cap to how quickly you can earn them. Earned from most PvP activities.
Conquest Points -- High-tier, harder-to-get PvP points. There will be a maximum cap to how many you can own, and a cap to how many you can earn per week. Earned from winning Rated Battlegrounds or Arenas. (currently called Arena Points)

When a new tier of raiding gear is released or a new PvP season begins, your higher tier of points will be converted into the lower tier. For instance, if a new tier of raid gear is released, your Valor points will be converted to Hero points, and similarly if a new PvP season begins your Conquest points will be converted to Honor points. Of course that means with these new releases you'll always begin without any of the higher tier of points, and thus be unable to stockpile them.

As noted for Conquest points, the Rated Battlegrounds and Arenas will be sharing this same point type. Because of that, it will in fact be possible to get the best PvP items without setting foot in Arena; however, more powerful armor and weapons will of course require more Conquest points, so players who win their matches more often will still gear up faster. We're removing personal rating requirements on almost all items; they're definitely removed for weapons. We might offer a few items to the absolute best players based on personal rating, largely as cosmetic or 'bragging rights' type items. And you'll have the option of purchasing the previous season’s gear with the more readily available Honor points.

We do plan to have a way to convert Honor points (PvP) into Hero points (PvE), and vice versa, at a loss. The conversions will be possible, but it won't be a 1:1 rate, and you'll have fewer points after the conversion process. We won't allow the higher tiers to be exchanged for each other, however.

To explain the reasoning for the weekly cap on points for the higher tiers, this is to provide flexibility in how players choose to earn the points without feeling like they have to do all of the content as often as it is available. If your Valor income from raiding is sufficient, you may not feel the need to run Dungeon Finder every night, or perhaps even at all. Likewise, a PvP player could choose to participate in a lot of Rated Battlegrounds but no Arenas, or focus on both, and still be able to earn the points they want.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!


Some interesting info there on badge changes, but I don't understand how it will work with the "better" rewards from 25's. Unless running 25 is the only way to cap your weekly badge points, it's just another nail in the coffin on them.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:45 am 
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Our primary goal when approaching badges in Cataclysm is to address a lot of the confusion that comes with these currency systems.


Really? People are confused by badges?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:51 am 
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Those in the middle though....those of us who run semi-casual 25-mans with their entire guild, and then get together with like minded individuals in smaller 10s to pursue some harder progression....those get entirely screwed and get to make the tough call between either sticking with the 10-man progression they enjoy, or not betraying the 15 other people who depend on their attendance for 25-man raiding.


This. In a nutshell.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:00 am 
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Müs wrote:
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Those in the middle though....those of us who run semi-casual 25-mans with their entire guild, and then get together with like minded individuals in smaller 10s to pursue some harder progression....those get entirely screwed and get to make the tough call between either sticking with the 10-man progression they enjoy, or not betraying the 15 other people who depend on their attendance for 25-man raiding.


This. In a nutshell.


Use an alt for the 25 mans.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:12 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Müs wrote:
Quote:
Those in the middle though....those of us who run semi-casual 25-mans with their entire guild, and then get together with like minded individuals in smaller 10s to pursue some harder progression....those get entirely screwed and get to make the tough call between either sticking with the 10-man progression they enjoy, or not betraying the 15 other people who depend on their attendance for 25-man raiding.


This. In a nutshell.


Use an alt for the 25 mans.


We don't allow alts generally in raids. Which is a good thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Jocificus wrote:
Dash wrote:
Only thing I can think of is it seems like you can progress as far as you can on 25s then switch to 10 mans and do the rest. That might be an option?


They've stated that you won't be able to do this now.



I think they are saying you might be able to do it:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... No=87#1726

Quote:
Here are some clarifications to a few common questions we're seeing.

Quote:
Q u o t e:
Regarding how the raid dungeons will share the same lockout. This means that you cannot do separate instances in the same week. If you defeat an encounter in 10 player normal mode then you are locked to the 10 player mode of that dungeon for that week and can flip between 10 player normal and 10 player heroic on a per boss basis (assuming heroic is available). In this scenario you cannot do the 25 player version. Is this correct?



Correct. There should be no circumstances under which you kill a boss more than once per week on the same character. However, in the same way that you can decide on a per-boss basis whether to try normal vs. hard mode, we might allow you to change between 10 and 25 on a per-encounter basis for additional flexibility. If you started a raid in 25-player mode and then found that you couldn’t get everyone together later in the week, you might be able to downsize the next few bosses to 10-player.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Müs wrote:
We don't allow alts generally in raids. Which is a good thing.


Huh. Have to completely disagree with you there.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:55 pm 
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The problem remains:
Tues 25 raiders show up to raid.
Wed 20 raiders show. Can't do 25... split into 10, and 10 are locked out of the raid. So Sorry guys. Maybe next week.
Thurs 10 man finishes the raid up.
fri-mon ???

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Müs wrote:
We don't allow alts generally in raids. Which is a good thing.


Huh. Have to completely disagree with you there.


Why? I don't want to put in my time and effort to progress through content and gear up alts. Especially when we have issues in 25m with attendance. Unless we *need* a tank or a healer because someone didn't show then you bring your main.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:01 pm 
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I'm thinking more for my guild it would be like this if it were implemented today:

Tuesday: Raid 25 man up to Putricide or wherever we can get to.

Thursday: Maybe do the raid weekly in 25, VoA real quick, practice on whatever in ICC.

Friday: 10's. The "A team" 10's would just do their heroic progression while B team could work on normal progression.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Dash wrote:
I'm thinking more for my guild it would be like this if it were implemented today:

Tuesday: Raid 25 man up to Putricide or wherever we can get to.

Thursday: Maybe do the raid weekly in 25, VoA real quick, practice on whatever in ICC.

Friday: 10's. The "A team" 10's would just do their heroic progression while B team could work on normal progression.


Actually, if this were implemented today:

Tues Raid 25 to Putricide (or whereever)
Thurs Raid Weekly, VOA, practice
Fri The A team does ICC heroic progression, and the B team sits on their thumbs.

As I read it, there's one lockout per raid. Heroic *or* normal. 10 *or* 25. Its all one now.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:15 pm 
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Again I'm going by this quote above from a blue post:

Quote:
Correct. There should be no circumstances under which you kill a boss more than once per week on the same character. However, in the same way that you can decide on a per-boss basis whether to try normal vs. hard mode, we might allow you to change between 10 and 25 on a per-encounter basis for additional flexibility. If you started a raid in 25-player mode and then found that you couldn’t get everyone together later in the week, you might be able to downsize the next few bosses to 10-player.


Your B team couldnt even practice on Putricide 10? I dont know that ours could, I dont do 10's really. But I mean they could at least try.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Again I'm going by this quote above from a blue post:

Quote:
Correct. There should be no circumstances under which you kill a boss more than once per week on the same character. However, in the same way that you can decide on a per-boss basis whether to try normal vs. hard mode, we might allow you to change between 10 and 25 on a per-encounter basis for additional flexibility. If you started a raid in 25-player mode and then found that you couldn’t get everyone together later in the week, you might be able to downsize the next few bosses to 10-player.


Your B team couldnt even practice on Putricide 10? I dont know that ours could, I dont do 10's really. But I mean they could at least try.


They couldn't practice on Putricide 10 because they'd be locked out by the A team progressing on Heroic ICC. Which adds another element. Say our 10 team beats LK this week. Next week, we want to work on heroic progression. We then can't do the 25 entrance mobs because they'd be dead by the 25 team on Tues. Therefore, to work on 10 hard progression, we'd have to not raid it in 25m and leave out the 15 or so people that raid and have fun as it is so that those of us that enjoy progression can do so.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Ah I see what you're saying now. They would all share 1 raid ID. Well that would suck if true. Yeah the overlap problem you mentioned I thought of too. Seems like it all comes back to the hardcore people will need to run 2 mains if they want to do both 10s and 25s.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Yeah, I think having 10's and 25's on the same lockout will screw a lot up for various people. Possibly if you can split a 25 for separate 10's it would be ok, but unless you can split it three ways someone's going to get left out. Then there really wouldn't be a way to go back to 25's, as the two or three different groups would likely have progressed to different lengths on the raid. How would you bring them back together?

I'm just wishing that they'd go back to the triggered hard modes, like Ulduar, instead of the choose your difficulty ones we've had ever since. Though sarth's way of doing the choosing was fine as it required more than just changing it in the ui.

Cataclysm is a love hate thing for me pretty much right now. I like some of the things they are doing, but some of them also seem to make little or not sense. It really just seems that most of the changes are being made so that they don't have to work as much. I'm still curious what the hell they do with all the money that wow brings in, because it's obviously not being channeled back into wow, or even just blizz's other games in the works at this point.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:00 pm 
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So far, I am not impressed with any of the Cata announcements, and more than likely will not be playing when it comes out.

Which is a shame, because the idea of overhauling Old-World is really cool. Their implementaion so far though is not for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:27 pm 
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I'm still not seeing what the problem with is a single raid lock out.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Khross wrote:
I'm still not seeing what the problem with is a single raid lock out.


Some of us like doing 25's? But are in guilds with friends that only really progress in 10's?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:24 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Khross wrote:
I'm still not seeing what the problem with is a single raid lock out.


Some of us like doing 25's? But are in guilds with friends that only really progress in 10's?


You'll still progress in 25's, just more slowly.

It's really about what you value more, progressing faster or your friends.


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