The Glade 4.0

It didn't need to be, since it appears that producing a valid, state issued ID is sufficient proof of legal residency. Under that condition, every time the officer is requesting ID, he is requesting verification of immigration status. If you can't produce a valid ID, then there already procedures in place to verify identity that don't require asking for immigration papers. People that can produce nothing and have no status in the states database will have issues.

But, considering what this law combats, I think the focus on highway patrol randomly pulling people over is an invention of the emotionally injected left. Look at the real penalties in place for those caught transporting illegal immigrants, and companies hiring illegal immigrants.

I don't disagree with this, and despite my posts in counter to you, I don't disagree with a lot of your concerns. I just think your concerns are biased and short sighted in light of the exact same practices across the board.

But its also a no win situation for those tasked with upholding the laws, and it basically turns their jobs into "NCLB" of police enforcement.

You need look no further than sentencing for crack... black communities were in an uproar about this "extra dangerous" drug and demanded higher penalties to keep it out of their neighborhoods... now, its a racist sentencing policy because blacks are more likely to use crack than powdered cocaine. You can also look at neighborhood patrol suits... certain communities want to eliminate crime, so the police respond by stepping up patrols in those areas, and the next thing you know, the police are being accused of racism because they are making more arrests in those communities, which are predominantly of a certain race.

Should the police not enforce the laws? Or should they have quotas? We can only arrest X number of Y immigrants per Z number of W immigrants? Or should they enforce the laws and make sure the laws are applied regardless of race?

If it weren't possible to reasonably suspect somebody is an illegal alien without racial profiling, the Border Patrol wouldn't be in existence. They stop people all the time north of the border. Apparently they're doing their job correctly. Arizona law enforcement will receive additional training, by executive order of Governor Brewer, on how to do this without racial profiling. That's the last as it exists now. If you believe that its still racist, then this law is not what you're taking issue with.

Edit: As an example - in either car, do they speak English? Are they carrying water bottles and wearing really dirty clothes which could indicate they just got picked up from wandering in the desert? Do they all not have ID? Do the plates match the vehicle?

I don't even know that I'm prepared to say that asking because they have an accent is racial profiling. It would be appropriate to ask any white or black person with an accent their legal status.

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The Dude abides.

Seriously, do you guys honestly think it's fair to require people to carry a ~$500 ID card with them everywhere they go, regardless of the crime rate or other circumstances of where they live? By the admission of several people here that federal law was never enforced, and I had an actual lawyer effectively tell me to ignore it.

Yes, if they wish to come here. The system we have isn't respectful of rights in the first place, and the canopy it creates must come with rules and invitations if people want it to stay up.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Wrong.

Immigrants could just get away with it because, really, what're the odds of running into a Federal LEO? Now, they have to actually give a **** and do what the federal law requires because the state has enforcement capacity... That's it.

That is the extent of this law.



...

Yes, you do have to carry it around, so what? Don't carry your driver's license on you ever, what with it being so expensive. Then see what happens if you get pulled over for something. You're railing against one form of ID while excusing another, be consistent.



And conveniently, you only have to have your residency papers while you're a resident. When you go back home, you don't need to carry it anymore.



You have to keep them with you, otherwise how would you prove you're in their country legally? I mean, NZ actually *shocker of shockers* enforces immigration law.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Except 4 is spurious. Legal immigrants are required to carry that documentation in the first place. They have no new restrictions placed upon them, period.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

First of all, you need to catch up, because the law has already been amended away from lawful contact.

Second, no. Nobody should have a problem with the law as it is now written. Know why? Because if you're detained or arrested, you have to provide ID (typically drivers license) anyway, which means you have to carry ID (typically drivers license) in this country. Boo **** hoo.

And I don't say boo **** hoo because I believe we should all have to carry ID all the time. I don't. In fact I wish we didn't. But we do.

So, backing up, where was your staunch defense of individual liberty every day up until now that every citizen had to have an ID on them if they were arrested? Liberals are so wholly inconsistent in this matter it makes me furious, because it seems to be either willful ignorance or just blatant stupidity.

Seriously, there aren't any new powers here, and there really aren't any more requirements for people who follow the law in the first place. What you and your Democrat friends are effectively griping about is that Arizona has added penalties for something that was already illegal.

Holy ****! Now you can get more than a slap on the wrist for violating the sovereign borders of a country. THE WORLD IS ENDING.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I don't have to carry ID at all times. PA has a grace period for producing even a drivers license when stopped. I don't have to carry any ID when I open carry around town either.

Mandatory ID for citizens no thanks.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

It's not being inconsistent to excuse one form of ID and not another when one costs 50 times what the other costs.



They could use whatever method they would use to verify you are a legal resident when the prosecute you for violating the law about carrying documents. I'm sure that would entail some cost for the government, and I could get behind the violator paying that cost, but it doesn't justify a multi-year prison sentence.

Seriously, you forget your wallet at home, go to prison for years? This sounds reasonable to you?

And now Major League Baseball's Players Association is potentially getting involved....http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2010/05/01/arizona_law_raises_union_ire/

We'll see what, if any effect, this may have on the law.

Yes. Yes it is. You're excusing one legal violation because it "costs too much to follow."



You aren't a resident. You're visiting. That being said, your logic here fails.

"They could use ID you don't have when prosecuting you for not having ID." Circular logic fail.



Wrong.

Violate the sovereign border of a country, go to jail? Yes.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Good thing your strawman isn't what I'm advocating.

These people are required by Federal law to carry ID. A state has passed an enforcement act, giving them the ability to enforce that law because the Feds weren't.

Xeq and the Democrats are crying about it, while simultaneously failing to complain about any other requirements to acquire or carry ID, up to and including states in which citizens must produce ID on arrest.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

THEY ALREADY HAVE TO DO THAT ANYWAY! JESUS CHRIST!

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Holy shitsnacks!

"Legal resident" is the government's term, not mine. I'm not sure how you can claim they're not a resident.

Since this provision of the law applies to people who are legal residents but just didn't have their documents in their personal possession when stopped, the authorities must have a way to verify your residency without the documents, otherwise the law is meaningless.



You haven't violated the sovereignty of anything, you're here legally, you just didn't have the green card on you.



...they also increased the penalty from a misdemeanor $100 fine and possible six month jail sentence regardless of the number of offenses, which would be in line with the punishment in a lot of states for failing to produce ID when required to, to one that can potentially be a felony and result in several years in prison. (not jail) They're not just "enforcing the federal law."

I'm not even complaining about the requirement to carry ID, I'm comparing about the incredibly disproportionate burden and punishments. A driver's license costs you $10 or $20 and if you do not have it when required the result is a fine of a hundred dollars or so. If I go to Arizona, I have to carry a document worth $500 and if caught without it I go to state prison for several years.

Seriously, the penalty for this is far worse than being an illegal immigrant and getting caught. It makes no sense on any level. Do you have any idea how much it costs to immigrate to the US legally in any reasonable amount of time? If you don't want to wait 7+ years you better be ready to shell out $25,000 because that's how much it will cost you. I'm speaking from experience here. And you want to lock up people willing to spend that much to move here just for forgetting their wallet at home, while the people who sneak in and try to hide it don't receive a tenth of the punishment?

Hubby showed me a CNN story today that had LEGAL Mexican immigrants SUPPORTING this Arizona law!! Their parents/grand parents/great grandparents had come here LEGALLY and made a good life for themselves! They are just as fed up with the disrespectful and greedy illegals as a lot of us are...and THEY are being called racist for standing their ground and speaking their minds!

I also saw a story on CNN about a Pinal County deputy that was shot by one of 5 Mexican drug dealers...

I'm all for this law in Arizona and I would hope California, New Mexico and Texas will follow suit! (I'm not holding my breath for California! )

(I don't know how to link the CNN reports but they are easy to find on CNN.com)

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"Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use one!"~ Matthew Quigley

"nothing like a little meow in bed at night" ~ Bruskey

"I gotta float my stick same as you" Hondo Lane

"Fill your hand you son of a *****!"

Here is another one:

[youtube]ShkpO9Rf1bo[/youtube]

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

What DFK and others seem to be missing is that the impact a law has on the population's freedom is a function of more than just what the letter of the law requires; it's also a function of the penalties for violation and the level of enforcement. The AZ law dramatically increases the latter two elements, and therefore dramatically increases the overall impact on people's freedom. And honestly, the fact that this isn't obvious to so-called conservatives/libertarians is just depressing.

Of course it's fair. Not requiring them to carry it is unfair to the people of this country.

The green card itself can't be that expensive to actually make; this problem could be solved by issuing every holder 2 or 3 copies.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So expecting people to follow the law as it exists, and to which they agreed as a condition of living here, is depressing?

This just kills me. People with a left-wing leaning are always concerned about freedom when it comes to things the US Constitution directed the government to enforce, such as citizenship of the population and protection of our borders. But when it comes to things that aren't directly in the Constitution, they're all for protecting those freedoms. See healthcare reform and a "right to healthcare." Illegal immigrants directly impact the liberty of other citizens, by taking up valuable resources, whether it be jobs, government services (even police/fire), etc. Not to mention, illegal immigrants haven't even agreed to partake in our Constitution, which makes for some interesting legal issues down the road. Don't people have the right to limit those services to legal citizens and residents of the country since it's an infringement upon the citizens' freedom?

This doesn't mean I don't understand what Mexican and Latin American illegals are going through. I fully understand and I may even think about doing what they do if I were in the same boat. But it doesn't mean we should be accepting it just because we feel sorry for them. Many other immigrants go through legal channels. You've also made it harder for them since illegals give them a bad name and undermine all the work they did to get into the US.

This is all common sense to me. Arizona has a crippling illegal immigration problem. From resources to crime and in between. Mexico is corrupt and crime is out of control, of course people want to come here. There are plenty of good people who want in, and plenty of criminals too. This issue always defaults to "if you're for enforcing immigration law you hate brown people." Americans like hard working people and dont like crime.

Ideally, you'd seal the border and set up your immigration policy to do your best to allow the good people in. Win win. We grow economically as they succeed here. In the absence of that enforcement and policy though, what is Arizona to do?

To suggest that citizens dont have a right to discourage illegal activity, that directly effects them on multiple levels, is completely absurd.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

You see, I view it the other way. I've never been able to wrap my head around the "law and order" mindset of so many self-described conservatives and libertarians. If the infringement of liberty comes in the form of taxation or regulation of commerce, they go apesh*t, but if it comes in the form of increased police powers, giving cops the benefit of every possible doubt, curtailing procedural justice protections in court, etc., they bend over backwards to justify expansive government power. Increasingly, my theory is that most self-described conservatives/libertarians are really just about protecting their own freedom. They look at taxes, environmental regs, etc., and they know those government actions will affect them. But when they look at law and order stuff, they figure it won't affect them, so they don't really care. Now, I think that mostly happens on a subconscious level, but it seems like a very real phenomenon.

Of course, liberals are selective too. They tend to get upset about law and order powers, but don't generally care about taxes and commercial regs. That's less hypocritical though, because liberals don't claim to oppose "big government" in general, whereas conservatives do (and then routinely violate that concept by defending expansive security powers).

I understand what the argument in general in this thread is. However your statement of "Because if you're detained or arrested, you have to provide ID (typically drivers license) anyway, which means you have to carry ID (typically drivers license) in this country." nor the preceding contained any qualifier that you were referring only to immigrants.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Freedom and liberty are distinct concepts RD. This law may infringe on Freedom (the Freedom to violate just law with little consequence) however it does not violate Liberty - since the law is just.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville