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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Posted without comment until I read the attached amendment itself.

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Ohio Sovereignty Amendment would curb government's power
State Ballot Board clears measure so petitioning can begin
Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:54 PM
By Mark Niquette
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH


A state board gave the green light today for a citizens' group to begin collecting petition signatures to put an issue on the fall ballot that supporters say is needed to rein in government gone astray.

Among other things, the Ohio Sovereignty Amendment would allow juries to nullify laws; expand the right to bear arms and maintain militias; permit recall of elected officials by petition signatures alone; ban federal enforcement of laws except through a county sheriff; and require all public school operations through the 12th grade be regulated only at the local district level.

"I think it's about time we get back on track because the government is running our country into the ground," said Michael Young of The Peoples Constitution Coalition of Ohio, which is seeking the amendment. "It's always been the duty of the people to hold government accountable, but we've failed in that duty."

The Ohio Ballot Board voted 3-1 to certify the proposed constitutional amendment as a single issue, clearing the way for the group to start circulating petition forms with the goal of putting the issue on the Nov. 2 ballot. The board did not determine whether the proposal would be constitutional or legal.

The group must collect 402,275 valid signatures of registered voters by June 30, including signatures from at least 44 of the 88 counties in Ohio equaling 5 percent of the 2006 vote for governor in each of those counties.

Young, a construction worker from Mount Vernon, said if the coalition doesn't succeed in getting the issue on the fall ballot, it will try next year.

He said the group, which needed four attempts before the Ohio attorney general's office certified a summary of the proposed amendment, hopes to have thousands of volunteers statewide circulating petition forms.

The Ballot Board's role was to determine whether the proposal was a single issue or needed to be broken up into different measures.

Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, who leads the board, questioned whether voters would have difficulty deciding the measure as a single ballot issue if they supported some aspects of the proposal but not others.

But in the end, Brunner voted to certify the proposal as a single issue. Board member Rebecca L. Englehoff dissented without comment.

Young and others argued it was one issue because all of the provisions fall under a common theme of defining state sovereignty and the mechanisms for preserving it.

Last month, the Ohio Supreme Court overturned a Ballot Board decision to split a an unrelated proposal into two issues, saying that as long as the subject matter "bears some reasonable relationship to a single general object or purpose, the board must certify its approval of the amendment as written without dividing it."

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:34 pm 
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My fear of state's cloistering themselves from government rule is that won't they ultimately become the very thing they are fighting against, just on a micro level?

Who's to say the individual's interests will be served better by having their state's Big Brother watching over them as opposed to Uncle's Sam's?


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:37 pm 
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Rodahn, I can move out of my State to another one without having to obtain a visa or citizenship. The State has more of an incentive to keep me happy with their governance than the country does.

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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 10:40 pm 
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True enough. I guess it depends on whom you see as taking better care of you -- Uncle Sam or your state.


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PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:29 pm 
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Rodahn wrote:
True enough. I guess it depends on whom you see as taking better care of you -- Uncle Sam or your state.


Define "taking care of you," since that is not the purpose of government.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:18 am 
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Rodahn wrote:
True enough. I guess it depends on whom you see as taking better care of you -- Uncle Sam or your state.


Oh lord..... :?


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:33 am 
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A state is also easier to resist.

Good luck Ohio.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:04 am 
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Where do I sign?

I'd rather have to deal with politians who are 100 miles away and elected by margins of hundreds than ones who are 1000 miles away and elected by margins of thousands (or in the case of the President millions)

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 11:59 am 
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Rodahn wrote:
True enough. I guess it depends on whom you see as taking better care of you -- Uncle Sam or your state.


Why on God's green Earth would anyone actually want the government to take care of them? I can understand, albeit I strongly disagree with, the notion that the government should take care of those who can't do for themselves. What I don't get, noting the inefficient, ineffectual, disruptive, and destructive way government goes about bungling most everything it undertakes, is why anyone would find this arrangement pleasant or beneficial, or even a preferred method of managing their own life. They just aren't very good at much of anything, and I value my own life to much to trust it to devout mediocrity.

That said, the reason I prefer state supremacy to federal is the more local the government, the more responsive to, and reflective of, the people it is governing.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
...the inefficient, ineffectual, disruptive, and destructive way government goes about bungling most everything it undertakes...

...the more local the government, the more responsive to, and reflective of, the people it is governing.


Can you provide evidence for either of those propositions? Not anecdotal examples, but actual studies comparing (i) government performance to private sector performance and (ii) local government responsiveness to state/federal government responsiveness?


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 12:45 pm 
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RangerDave:

Will evidence change your opinion, because we have some very recent and very poignant evidence from the CBO and Medicaid/Medicare Administration Offices.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:06 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
...the inefficient, ineffectual, disruptive, and destructive way government goes about bungling most everything it undertakes...

...the more local the government, the more responsive to, and reflective of, the people it is governing.


Can you provide evidence for either of those propositions? Not anecdotal examples, but actual studies comparing (i) government performance to private sector performance and (ii) local government responsiveness to state/federal government responsiveness?


You want me to produce studies comparing government mandated and managed service monopolies to private sector entities which don't exist, because they can't legally? Perhaps you'd like me to have the toothfairy wish them over to your floating office?

As to the second, I'll just ask you when was the last time you attended a city council meeting, or visited your state congress?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 2:44 pm 
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I can't wait to see podunkville juries in southeastern Ohio overturn laws. Especially the ones regarding crystal-meth and marijuana growth.

/facepalm.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:44 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
I can't wait to see podunkville juries in southeastern Ohio overturn laws. Especially the ones regarding crystal-meth and marijuana growth.

/facepalm.


Ummm.... WTF does this have to do with juries, hillbilly or otherwise?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Rodahn wrote:
True enough. I guess it depends on whom you see as taking better care of you -- Uncle Sam or your state.


I prefer to take care of myself.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:26 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
I can't wait to see podunkville juries in southeastern Ohio overturn laws. Especially the ones regarding crystal-meth and marijuana growth.

/facepalm.


Ummm.... WTF does this have to do with juries, hillbilly or otherwise?

I believe one of the sections of the proposed amendment would require juries to be specifically informed of the option of jury nullification before trial.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Oh even better.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:58 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
I can't wait to see podunkville juries in southeastern Ohio overturn laws. Especially the ones regarding crystal-meth and marijuana growth.

/facepalm.


Ummm.... WTF does this have to do with juries, hillbilly or otherwise?

I believe one of the sections of the proposed amendment would require juries to be specifically informed of the option of jury nullification before trial.


Really? That is an unbelievable step towards freedom... I can't possibly understand any objections...

Especially given that jury nullification doesn't define policy, Hopwin.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:59 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Really? That is an unbelievable step towards freedom... I can't possibly understand any objections...

Especially given that jury nullification doesn't define policy, Hopwin.


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Among other things, the Ohio Sovereignty Amendment would allow juries to nullify laws; expand the right to bear arms and maintain militias; permit recall of elected officials by petition signatures alone; ban federal enforcement of laws except through a county sheriff; and require all public school operations through the 12th grade be regulated only at the local district level.


So 11,542,645 Ohioans who elect State, County and City Officials to enact laws on our behalf can be over-ridden by 12 people with nothing better to do than earn $5 a day... Fascinating. I thought the Supreme Court's job was to balance the legislative and executive but it's nice to see that anyone can fill that role regardless of education, experience or temperament.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:26 am 
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It seems, Hopwin, that you are unfamiliar with the legal reality of jury nullification.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:29 am 
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Hopwin who is our government for by and of?

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Hopwin who is our government for by and of?


Who cares? It isn't by juries.

Courts are vetted at least by elected representatives. Juries are vetted only by lawyers whose interest is in winning their cases.

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:16 pm 
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So, you disagree with elections open to the general populous, Diamondeye?

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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Courts are vetted at least by elected representatives. Juries are vetted only by lawyers whose interest is in winning their cases.

not that I really have much to say on this, but I thought I would point out that at least with lawyers interested in winning their cases, there are at least 2 different opinions and goals, the likelihood of collusion is potentially much less than when dealing with politicians.


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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Khross wrote:
It seems, Hopwin, that you are unfamiliar with the legal reality of jury nullification.

Correct. Enlighten me.

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