The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:19 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 124 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:45 am
Posts: 889
Monte wrote:
I don't necessarily think they are good under Obama. I don't think taxes are high enough for the top earners in this country, for example. I also think that Obama has done a great deal to roll back a lot of the overreach of the previous administration, but more could be done.

The inconsistency of their outrage tells me that there is more behind it than opposition to big government. I think it has a great deal to do with anti-liberal bigotry, and in some less than small measure, anti-black bigotry.

I know that sends folks here into a tizzy, but I just don't have much else in the way of explaination as to their selective application of outrage.

I would argue that a better explanation is that many people see a government now that is going to tax them more and take away more of the money they worked for. It's (IMO) a more logical explanation than liberal bias or racism.

Apparently, people seem to think the top earners are going to stand idly by while government takes more and more of their wealth. Historically and logically, that's not likely.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 am 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
They should pay however much it takes for them to not be dirty, evil, wealthy people anymore.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:49 am
Posts: 2410
Numbers are fun. The top tax bracket is currently at 33%, IIRC, and will go up to 36% once Bush's cuts (which did more to baloon the deficit than Obama's proposed initiatives will, mind you) expire.

Yes, I believe that if we are going to have a progressive taxation system, that the wealthy ought to pay more than they currently do. They benefit the most from the social contract, overall. They have more to lose that is protected by the government. They enjoy the compound benefit of roads, public schools, a subsidized internet, and countless other perks that the poor and middle class don't profit nearly as much from.

So yes, given a progressive taxation system, I don't think the wealthy pay in their fair share yet, given how much they benefit.

_________________
Image

It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:30 am 
Offline
The King
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:34 am
Posts: 3219
Quote:
Transcript of remarks made by Leo Carrington (who doesn't exist) to a mandatory meeting of all employees of Carrington Automotive Enterprises, Inc. (which doesn't exist either) on August 17th, 2009 at the Royal Payne Hotel (a purely imaginary place) in Norfolk, Virginia (which does, in fact, exist).

I would like to start by thanking you for attending this meeting, though it's not like you had much of a choice. After all, attendance was mandatory. I'm also glad many of you accepted my invitation to your family members to be here as well. I have a few remarks to make to all of you, and then we'll retire to the ballroom for a great lunch and some employee awards.

I felt that this meeting was important enough to close all 12 of our tire and automotive shops today so that you could be here. To reassure you, everybody is being paid for the day --- except me. Since our stores are closed we're making no money. That economic loss is mine to sustain. Carrington Automotive has 157 full time employees and around 30 additional part-timers. All of you are here. I thank you for that.

When you walked into this auditorium you were handed a rather thick 78-page document. Many of you have already taken a peek. You were probably surprised to see that it's my personal tax return for 2008. Those of you who are adept at reading these tax returns will see that last year my taxable income was $534,000.00. Now I'm sure this seems rather high to many of you. So ... let's talk about this tax return.

Carrington Automotive Enterprises is what we call a Sub-S - a Subchapter S corporation. The name comes from a particular part of our tax code. Sub-S status means that the income from all 12 of our stores is reported on my personal tax return. Businesses that report their income on the owner's personal tax return are referred to as "small businesses." So, you see now that this $534,000 is really the total taxable income - the total combined profit from all 12 of our stores. That works out to an average of a bit over $44,000 per store.

Why did I feel it important for you to see my actual 2008 tax return? Well, there's a lot of rhetoric being thrown around today about taxes, small businesses and rich people. To the people in charge in Washington right now I'm a wealthy American making over a half-million dollars a year. Most Americans would agree: I'm just another rich guy; after all ... I had over a half-million in income last year, right? In this room we know that the reality is that I'm a small business owner who runs 12 retail establishments and employs 187 people. Now here's something that shouldn't surprise you, but it will: Just under 100 percent ... make that 99.7 percent of all employers in this countries are small businesses, just like ours. Every one of these businesses reports their income on a personal income tax return. You need to understand that small businesses like ours are responsible for about 80 percent of all private sector jobs in this country, and about 70 percent of all jobs that have been created over the past year. You also need to know that when you hear some politician talking about rich people who earn over $200,000 or $500,000 a year, they're talking about the people who create the jobs.

The people who are now running the show in Washington have been talking for months about raising taxes on wealthy Americans. I already know that in two years my federal income taxes are going to go up by about 4.5 percent. That happens when Obama and the Democrats allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. When my taxes climb by 4.5 percent the Democrats will be on television saying that this really isn't a tax increase. They'll explain that the Bush tax cuts have expired .. nothing more. Here at Carrington we'll know that almost 5% has been taken right off of our bottom line. And that means it will be coming off your bottom line.

Numbers are boring, I know ... but let's talk a bit more about that $534,000. That's the money that was left last year from company revenues after I paid all of the salaries and expenses of running this business. Now I could have kept every penny of that for myself, but that would have left us with nothing to grow our business, to attract new customers and to hire new employees. You're aware that we've been talking about opening new stores in Virginia Beach and Newport News. To do that I will have to buy or lease property, construct a building and purchase inventory. I also have to hire additional people to work in those stores. These people wouldn't immediately be earning their pay. So, where do you think the money for all of this comes from? Right out of our profits .. right out of that $534,000. I need to advertise to bring customers in, especially in these tough times. Where do you think that money comes from? Oh sure, I can count it as an expense when I file my next income tax return .. but for right now that comes from either current revenues or last year's profits. Revenues right now aren't all that hot ... so do the math. A good effective advertising campaign might cost us more than $300,000.

Is this all starting to come together for you now?

Right now the Democrats are pushing a nationalized health care plan that, depending on who's doing the talking, will add anywhere from another two percent to an additional 4.6 percent to my taxes. If I add a few more stores, which I would like to do, and if the economy improves, my taxable income ... our business income ... could go over one million dollars! If that happens the Democrats have yet another tax waiting, another five percent plus! I've really lost tract of all of the new government programs the Democrats and President Obama are proposing that they claim they will be able to finance with new taxes on what they call "wealthy Americans."

And while we're talking about health care, let me explain something else to you. I understand that possibly your biggest complaint with our company is that we don't provide you with health insurance. That is because as your employer I believe that it is my responsibility to provide you with a safe workplace and a fair wage and to do all that I can to preserve and grow this company that provides us all with income. I no more have a responsibility to provide you with health insurance than I do with life, auto or homeowner's insurance. As you know, I have periodically invited agents for health insurance companies here to provide you with information on private health insurance plans. The Democrats are proposing to levy yet another tax against Carrington in the amount of 8 percent of my payroll as a penalty for not providing you with health insurance. You should know that if they do this I will be reducing every person's salary or hourly wage by that same 8 percent. This will not be done to put any more money in my pocket. It will be done to make sure that I don't suffer financially from the Democrat's efforts to place our healthcare under the control of the federal government. It is your health, not mine. It is your healthcare, not mine. These are your expenses, not mine. If you think I'm wrong about all this, I would sure love to hear your reasoning.

Try to understand what I'm telling you here. Those people that Obama and the Democrats call "wealthy Americans" are, in very large part, America's small business owners. I'm one of them. You have the evidence, and surely you don't think that the owner of a bunch of tire stores is anything special. That $534,000 figure on my income tax return puts me squarely in Democrat crosshairs when it comes to tax increases.

Let's be clear about this ... crystal clear. Any federal tax increase on me is going to cost you money, not me. Any new taxes on Carrington Automotive will be new taxes that you, or the people I don't hire to staff the new stores I won't be building, will be paying. Do you understand what I'm telling you? You've heard about things rolling downhill, right? Fine .. then you need to know that taxes, like that other stuff, roll downhill. Now you and I may understand that you are not among those that the Democrats call "wealthy Americans," but when this "tax the rich" thing comes down you are going to be standing at the bottom of the mud slide, if you get my drift. That's life in the big city, my friends ... where elections have consequences.

You know our economy is very weak right now. I've pledged to get us through this without layoffs or cuts in your wages and benefits. It's too bad the politicians can't get us through this without attacking our profits. To insure our survival I have to take a substantial portion of that $534,000 and set it aside for unexpected expenses and a worsening economy. Trouble is, the government is eyeing that money too ... and they have the guns. If they want it, they can take it.

I don't want to make this too long. There's a great lunch waiting for us all. But you need to understand what's happening here. I've worked hard for 23 years to create this business. There were many years where I couldn't take a penny in income because every dollar was being dedicated to expanding the business. There were tough times when it took every dollar of revenues to replenish our inventory and cover your paychecks. During those times I earned nothing. If you want to see those tax returns, just let me know.

OK .. I know I'm repeating myself here. I don't hire stupid people, and you are probably getting it now. So let me just ramble for a few more minutes.

Most Americans don't realize that when the Democrats talk about raising taxes on people making more than $250 thousand a year, they're talking about raising taxes on small businesses. The U.S. Treasury Department says that six out of every ten individuals in this country with incomes of more than $280,000 are actually small business owners. About one-half of the income in this country that would be subject to these increased taxes is from small businesses like ours. Depending on how many of these wonderful new taxes the Democrats manage to pass, this company could see its tax burden increase by as much as $60,000. Perhaps more.

I know a lot of you voted for President Obama. A lot of you voted for Democrats across the board. Whether you voted out of support for some specific policies, or because you liked his slogans, you need to learn one very valuable lesson from this election. Elections have consequences. You might have thought it would be cool to have a president who looks like you; or a president who is young, has a buff bod, and speaks eloquently when there's a teleprompter in the neighborhood. Maybe you liked his promises to tax the rich. Maybe you believed his promise not to raise taxes on people earning less than a certain amount. Maybe you actually bought into his promise to cut taxes on millions of Americans who actually don't pay income taxes in the first place. Whatever the reason .. your vote had consequences; and here they are.

Bottom line? I'm not taking this hit alone. As soon as the Democrats manage to get their tax increases on the books, I'm going to take steps to make sure that my family isn't affected. When you own the business, that is what you're allowed to do. I built this business over a period of 23 years, and I'm not going to see my family suffer because we have a president and a congress who think that wealth is distributed rather than earned. Any additional taxes, of whatever description, that President Obama and the Democrats inflict on this business will come straight out of any funds I have set aside for expansion or pay and benefit increases. Any plans I might have had to hire additional employees for new stores will be put aside. Any plans for raises for the people I now have working for me will be shelved. Year-end bonuses might well be eliminated. That may sound rough, but that's the reality.

You're going to continue to hear a lot of anti-wealth rhetoric out there from the media and from the left. You can chose to believe what you wish .. .but when it comes to Carrington Automotive you will know the truth. The books are open to any of you at any time. I have nothing to hide. I would hope that other small business owners out there would hold meetings like this one, but I know it won't happen that often. One of the lessons to be learned here is that taxes ... all taxes ... and all regulatory costs that are placed on businesses anywhere in this country, will eventually be passed right on down to individuals; individuals such as yourself. This hasn't been about admonishing anyone and it hasn't been about issuing threats. This is part of the education you should have received in the government schools, but didn't. Class is now dismissed.

Let's eat.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:39 am 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Montegue:

Hard Numbers: The Top 5% of Tax Payers pay 90% of the taxes collected. How much more do they need to pay for equity in your eyes?

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:09 pm
Posts: 733
Khross wrote:
Montegue:

Hard Numbers: The Top 5% of Tax Payers pay 90% of the taxes collected. How much more do they need to pay for equity in your eyes?

105% probably...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:46 am 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Additionally:

You claim that the wealthy benefit more from the social contract. For the sake of argument, let's just take this at face value. So say that Alice is wealthy, and that she has, according to your theory, benefitted by $100,000 more than Bob during this year. It stands to reason that, under your theory, if Alice pays $100,000 more than Bob in taxes, she has nullified any extra benefit she received, and that if she were taxed any more than this amount, it would not be fair to her.

The critical question, then, if we are to have fair taxes is:

How do we quantify -- in specific dollar amounts -- the extent to which a person has benefitted from the social contract?

You must be able to answer this question in order to propose a taxation system which would be fair under your own terms.

Edit: clarified question

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:45 am
Posts: 889
I doubt that fairness is really the issue here.

Any time someone wants to take money from people, they (those whose money is being taken) usually want to know, "What am I gonna get for my money?" It's pretty much that simple, really. Many folks see a government that takes more and more, but they get little in return. People pay lots of money for the schools(obvious, since we spend so much money per student) but we can see poor results from our school systems. It's a logical question for taxpayers to ask, "This school system is performing so poorly that I had to send my children to private school even while my tax money went to support the public school, and now you want to take more from me to pour into that cesspool? ...... that!!" (Schools being but one of many examples I could use)

People want to know what they're gonna get for their money; it's that simple. It's not logical to expect people to support government taking more of their wealth, while making life worse for them. Few of the taxpayers see this government making life better.


Last edited by Beryllin on Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
I feel a sense of desperation in the recent growing accusations of racism. Democrat and Obama's poll numbers are dropping, as well as the support for the health care legislation. The masses are getting angry about the ridiculous spending, and 85% of the people are happy with their health care plans.

The Democrats are getting desperate; they are out of ideas, they are looking at a rebuke (possibly a serious one) in the upcoming midterm elections, conservative democrats see this and are bailing, so they are resorting to claims of racism.

This is a bad strategy, though, as it will only further alienate those who are disagreeing.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:34 pm
Posts: 324
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Jocificus wrote:
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.


FYI, you're proposing that people be taxed higher than others (first 35k is tax free)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3455
Location: St. Louis, MO
Jocificus wrote:
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.


Let me see if I can explain. You see, some people are intrinsically evil. They ignore the suffering and squalor of people who, through no fault of their own, are downtrodden, sick, depressed, marginalized, etc., and it does not touch their money-grubbing stone hearts. This type of behavior needs to be punished by taking away the money they are so miserly hoarding, and giving it to the fine, upstanding members of society who only through sheer misfortune are in the dire straits that they are. Hopefully, this will teach them a lesson, and they will be in the future happy to come together in a spirit of brotherhood with those masses that they were oppressing, but if it doesn't, at least some good was done with the money that was freed from their clutches.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:34 pm
Posts: 324
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.


FYI, you're proposing that people be taxed higher than others (first 35k is tax free)


Yeah, this is true. But as everyone would get the first 35k free, whether or not they actually made that much or more, I think it's fair enough.

I'm definitely no tax expert by any means, so I'm sure there's issues with this idea. I'm absolutely against complexity in out laws though, and I think everything should be simplified as far as possible. This would cover that for taxes, easily.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:46 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
Jocificus wrote:
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.



This is my idea, too. Only I'd set the exemption level below 35k...the flat tax rate would need to be ridiculously high to compensate for that. 20-25k should be sufficient.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:08 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Stathol wrote:
Additionally:

You claim that the wealthy benefit more from the social contract. For the sake of argument, let's just take this at face value. So say that Alice is wealthy, and that she has, according to your theory, benefitted by $100,000 more than Bob during this year. It stands to reason that, under your theory, if Alice pays $100,000 more than Bob in taxes, she has nullified any extra benefit she received, and that if she were taxed any more than this amount, it would not be fair to her.

The critical question, then, if we are to have fair taxes is:

How do we quantify -- in specific dollar amounts -- the extent to which a person has benefitted from the social contract?

You must be able to answer this question in order to propose a taxation system which would be fair under your own terms.

Edit: clarified question


Anticipating the Eric Cartman defense...

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:11 pm 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Jocificus wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.


FYI, you're proposing that people be taxed higher than others (first 35k is tax free)


Yeah, this is true. But as everyone would get the first 35k free, whether or not they actually made that much or more, I think it's fair enough.

I'm definitely no tax expert by any means, so I'm sure there's issues with this idea. I'm absolutely against complexity in out laws though, and I think everything should be simplified as far as possible. This would cover that for taxes, easily.


Well, I understand your numbers are just for demonstrating your points sake, obviously we both know that there would be a lot of work in determining how much is considered "tax exempt" and what the % of taxed income is.

That said, I think the most insidious component of income tax is the witholding system and how we file taxes, file for returns, file for exemptions, file for taxes owed etc.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:49 pm 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
You know how to make taxes fair? Stop taxing based upon achievement and begin taxing based upon usage and consumption.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:07 am 
Offline
Bull Moose
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:36 pm
Posts: 7507
Location: Last Western Stop of the Pony Express
Yet people whine about sin taxes, sales taxes and value added taxes. No tax will please everyone, though I concur, usage and consumption is a fairly common ground kind of area.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:23 am 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Micheal wrote:
Yet people whine about sin taxes, sales taxes and value added taxes. No tax will please everyone, though I concur, usage and consumption is a fairly common ground kind of area.


Yea, people whine about them because they are taxes, but your point doesn't stand against DFK!'s because I doubt anyone would whine about such taxes in the context of a choice between them (being consumption or property taxes) and income, payroll and entitlement program taxes.

Montegue wrote:
Numbers are fun. The top tax bracket is currently at 33%, IIRC, and will go up to 36% once Bush's cuts (which did more to baloon the deficit than Obama's proposed initiatives will, mind you) expire.


This is a double fallacy. The ballooned deficit is a mechanism or two items, not a single. Tax cuts only affect the deficit by cocurrent lack of spending cuts. The inverse is also true. Therefore spending increases without raising taxes increase the deficit as well. The deficit run under the current administration is being projected (by the administration) to be nearly four times of that under Bush in his highest year. Did Bush decrease taxes by over 4 fold? If so, then the above statement is not true. Granted, Bush is/was an idiot because he, like most presidents in recent memory, spent more money than he should.

Secondly, it's a fallacy because tax cuts with concurring spending cuts still tax citizens because the debt must be monetized (or borrowed, then monetized later by other generations). The tax "cuts" you so ridicule don't exist; they were simply levied a different way and likely paid for in greater share by the poor and working.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:28 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Micheal wrote:
Yet people whine about sin taxes, sales taxes and value added taxes. No tax will please everyone, though I concur, usage and consumption is a fairly common ground kind of area.


I think that part of why people whine about that is because we're already taxed to death in other areas.


Property taxes are only good for making individuals beholden to the community. They're a vestige of feudalism in my opinion.

Graduated income taxes punish achievement and in some particular situations can be a disincentive to work more.

Flat income taxes almost always have a floor, thereby creating iniquity.

Corporate/business taxes are simply means to disguise additional taxes on the consumer, as businesses don't truly pay the tax.

Consumption taxes that include exclusions for certain necessities of living such as food and shelter provide equality by allowing each individual to choose the amount of taxes they wish to pay through direct consumer choice. They also allow individuals to avoid paying taxes entirely if they so desire. They therefore are the most equitable and the most respectful of individual autonomy. Is it any surprise, therefore, that the governmental politicians and the statist political bodies oppose such proposals as the FairTax?



Edit: Furthermore, and I've done no research on this, I'd think consumption taxes would be more recession-proof. This would be a big advantage for the government. Everybody spends money, even when they're laid off. Sure, they might spend less when they're laid off, but they still spend some. You don't earn any income when you're laid off though. Therefore, tax receipts wouldn't suffer as much during a recession, potentially yielding less debt-loading by the government.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:20 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Jocificus wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
I've never understood why anyone should be taxed more than anyone else. Just because they're more successful? That makes zero sense to me.

Everyone should be taxed at exactly the same percentage, with a small buffer before you start being taxed. Something like your first $35k is untaxed, everything after that is taxed at 30%. There, tax code simplified, and it's fair to everyone, as everyone has the exact same taxes applied to them.

Can anyone explain a good reason why people should have to pay more than others?

ps Those numbers are completely made up and I really don't know what the "Real" numbers would need to be to make this viable. Just an example.


FYI, you're proposing that people be taxed higher than others (first 35k is tax free)


Yeah, this is true. But as everyone would get the first 35k free, whether or not they actually made that much or more, I think it's fair enough.


Sure, but the same argument could be made for each tax bracket in the current system. "Well, everyone only has to pay 15% of the first $50k, whether or not they actually made that much or more...." etc, etc for each


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:13 am 
Offline
Perfect Equilibrium
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 3127
Location: Coffin Corner
Monte wrote:
Numbers are fun. The top tax bracket is currently at 33%, IIRC, and will go up to 36% once Bush's cuts (which did more to baloon the deficit than Obama's proposed initiatives will, mind you) expire.

Yes, I believe that if we are going to have a progressive taxation system, that the wealthy ought to pay more than they currently do. They benefit the most from the social contract, overall. They have more to lose that is protected by the government. They enjoy the compound benefit of roads, public schools, a subsidized internet, and countless other perks that the poor and middle class don't profit nearly as much from.

So yes, given a progressive taxation system, I don't think the wealthy pay in their fair share yet, given how much they benefit.


The jealousness, bigotry, ignorance of this post is staggering.

I work at a public utility. Right now, it is 0602 and I've been here 2100 last night, and still have another 3 hours to go. I am hurtling towards yet another 70 hour work week where we don't get paid overtime. Why don't get paid overtime? Because we can't afford to, because we aren't allowed to charge market price for electricity; it's regulated by people with similiar mindset as yours: the product is so valuable, that the price must be fixed.

Therefore, we can't afford to actually pay people to keep the plant running in an effecient manner, because running in an effecient manner requires insane staffing and people aren't willing to work insane hours without some sort of compensation. It's resulting in a high turnover rate which leads to even poorer plant performance because people don't stay around long enough to become a "wealth of knowledge."

So we aren't allowed to sell our product at the market price. Additionaly, the salaries we do make for our efforts are deamed "excessive" by people like you and now we're taxed. From my perspective, it's a bunch of very hard-working and honest people busting their *** to get people one of what is considered the "bare" essentials and not even are appreciated for their efforts. Well, when these people get sick of the mounting taxations and shrinking salaries (due to capped electricity prices and increasing labor hours) and no one is going to work here, then what are you going to do? Force them to work there?

You are pursuing your dream, so be prepared to sacrifice to live that way. People where I work sacrificed their dream to provide an essential service to society doing a boring and mundane job. Don't be suprised when their monetary incentive is taken away, that that service becomes increasingly difficult to provide.

Note that this would be applicable to ones such as corporate CEO's and executive types you so often villify. It has nothing to do with compounding benefit from some supposed "social contract". Their wealth is accumulated by provided an irreplaceable service for society, self evident by their accumulated wealth.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Creating new Racists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:11 am 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Montegue:

How much Rousseau have you read?

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:07 am 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Leviathan -- Thomas Hobbes, 1651 (alt)

Second Treatise of Government -- John Locke, 1690 (alt)

The Social Contract (du Con tract Social) -- Jean Jacques Rousseau, 1762

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 124 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 130 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group