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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:19 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
That's a ridiculous statement, Ladas.

Which part?


The suggestion that contemporary affirmative action is comparable to Jim Crow in any meaningful way. Sure, in some abstract, "all discrimination is bad" way, the two are related, but to draw a moral equivalency in practice is to be completely divorced from reality. Whatever discriminatory burdens a white person faces today are not remotely comparable to those faced by a black person in the South (or the North, for that matter) in the pre-Civil Rights Act era.


Would you be willing to support a law mandating a certain percentgage of various sub-segments of professional athletes have to be white?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Indeed, your support of the recent Health Care Reform Act, indicates such a breach of [the right of free association]....You undeniably refuse a doctor's right to choose who he or she treats on the grounds that you believe health care services are a right: consequently, you implicitly support the notion that someone can demand such services of a person who chooses to practice medicine.


I don't believe health care services are a right that one can morally demand of another, but I do believe people should choose, as a matter of charity and compassion, to help others afford such services, and I think a democratic polity can make such a choice collectively. Paying the bill (which is what the HCRA is designed to do), however, isn't the same as requiring the doctor to provide the service in the first place.

Khross wrote:
I think you grossly misunderstand the South and much of the history of the Twentieth Century. Indeed, it's a curious thing that the South is so often castigated on this issue, when it persisted for far longer and in far more sinister manners North of the Mason Dixon line.

...Government intrusion merely exacerbated the situation politically by trying to regulate an innate human desire to spend time with people like one's self....All the Civil Rights Act did was slow the social shift to a more equitable and less ethnically hindered social state.


This is just Southern apologism, Khross. Certainly, the North had a ton of racial tension and discrimination, and yes, Northerners often overlook that repugnant aspect of their own regional history, but I'm sorry, it just was not comparable to what existed in the South. Formal, legal discrimination was nowhere near the extent of Jim Crow laws, and while there was de facto social segregation, its contours were not so rigidly and violently enforced. Southern apologists often argue, as you do here, that Federal interference simply triggered a backlash, but Federal involvement only came about once the persistence of Southern blacks' own protests and the violence of Southern whites' response became impossible to ignore. Southern racism, and the Jim Crow laws that formalized it, were very much based on a white supremacist vision of society in which blacks knew their place and didn't get "uppity" by demanding equal treatment. As soon as civil rights activists tried to upset that social order, the virulence and repulsiveness of Southern racism was laid bare for all to see. In fact, I think that's a big part of why the South changed so much, so quickly. Many white Southerners themselves were shocked by the intensity of the hatred and violence underpinning their social order.


Last edited by RangerDave on Fri May 21, 2010 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:56 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Would you be willing to support a law mandating a certain percentgage of various sub-segments of professional athletes have to be white?


Nope, and I don't support affirmative action (at least at this point in history) either. I'll point out, though, that professional sports is very different than most other professions (clear metrics, natural ability, best-of-the-best, etc.), and also that affirmative action hasn't involved a quota system in decades.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:59 pm 
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I would argue that clear metrics, natural ability, and best-of-the-best are readily available for all professions.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:07 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Nope, and I don't support affirmative action (at least at this point in history) either. I'll point out, though, that professional sports is very different than most other professions (clear metrics, natural ability, best-of-the-best, etc.), and also that affirmative action hasn't involved a quota system in decades.

You might want to double check that statement RD, as percentages of MB/WB entities are absolutely defined as a requirement for governmental contracts under the auspices of affirmative action.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:11 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
That's a ridiculous statement, Ladas.

Which part?


The suggestion that contemporary affirmative action is comparable to Jim Crow in any meaningful way. Sure, in some abstract, "all discrimination is bad" way, the two are related, but to draw a moral equivalency in practice is to be completely divorced from reality. Whatever discriminatory burdens a white person faces today are not remotely comparable to those faced by a black person in the South (or the North, for that matter) in the pre-Civil Rights Act era.

Thats a good answer, but it takes a different, though understandable, direction from the intent of my question. If I read your comment correctly that led to my question, you would not currently support the restrictions that were levied on society because you feel the conditions have changed. So, I inferred that statement that now that minorities can instill the same rules, but in an opposite direction (ignoring the double standard for a moment), its fair that everyone can self segregate?


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Thats a good answer, but it takes a different, though understandable, direction from the intent of my question. If I read your comment correctly that led to my question, you would not currently support the restrictions that were levied on society because you feel the conditions have changed. So, I inferred that statement that now that minorities can instill the same rules, but in an opposite direction (ignoring the double standard for a moment), its fair that everyone can self segregate?


Ah, ok. Sorry for misunderstanding your point. Your inference is close to what I actually think. I believe that private racial discrimination is morally wrong and corrosive to society, but I also believe that government interference with freedom of association is wrong and corrosive. Indeed, I believe such government interference is qualitatively worse than private discrimination. Nevertheless, if the discrimination is sufficiently widespread and rigidly enforced, then I view governmental interference as the lesser of two evils. I think we met that threshold in the 1960s, but not today. So, while I wouldn't say it's "fair" for people self-segregate now, I'd say it's not something the government should interfere with.

Regarding the double standard of affirmative action, I have a similar thought process to the above, though I'm not sure where I come out on the issue in the immediate aftermath of the Civil Rights era, at least regarding government programs. Governmental discrimination is particularly corrosive, so the threshold for justification is really high, but on the other hand, a huge part of the reason black people were at such a disadvantage in the first place was governmental discrimination against them, so the government owed them compensation of some sort. At this point in history, though, I think the effects of governmental discrimination against black people back then have become sufficiently attenuated that it's time to move on.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:59 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I think we met that threshold in the 1960s, but not today. So, while I wouldn't say it's "fair" for people self-segregate now, I'd say it's not something the government should interfere with.

So should the districts within states be without respect to racial considerations?


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
I think we met that threshold in the 1960s, but not today. So, while I wouldn't say it's "fair" for people self-segregate now, I'd say it's not something the government should interfere with.

So should the districts within states be without respect to racial considerations?


Yes, today they should be. I think it would be pretty difficult these days for people to get away with rigging the boundaries to prevent black majorities, so the harm that originally justified such manipulation is largely gone.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Nope, and I don't support affirmative action (at least at this point in history) either. I'll point out, though, that professional sports is very different than most other professions (clear metrics, natural ability, best-of-the-best, etc.), and also that affirmative action hasn't involved a quota system in decades.

You might want to double check that statement RD, as percentages of MB/WB entities are absolutely defined as a requirement for governmental contracts under the auspices of affirmative action.



Indeed. Government agencies and governmentally contracted organizations are required to meet certain metrics for diversity. Given how far federal monies trickle-down, I think it's fair to say that most medium-to-large companies must meet these metrics.

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:26 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
I think we met that threshold in the 1960s, but not today. So, while I wouldn't say it's "fair" for people self-segregate now, I'd say it's not something the government should interfere with.

So should the districts within states be without respect to racial considerations?


Yes, today they should be. I think it would be pretty difficult these days for people to get away with rigging the boundaries to prevent black majorities, so the harm that originally justified such manipulation is largely gone.

So just to be clear, were you chastizing Paul for his comments and ideology when you currently hold the same opinion?


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:35 pm 
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No, the part of Paul's view that I objected to was his opposition to the ban on discrimination by private businesses in the context of 1964. It's his lack of perspective on what the world of 1964 involved, and therefore justified, that I took issue with.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:33 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
No, the part of Paul's view that I objected to was his opposition to the ban on discrimination by private businesses in the context of 1964. It's his lack of perspective on what the world of 1964 involved, and therefore justified, that I took issue with.


I don't think you can demonstrate that forced integration did anyone any good.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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