The Glade 4.0

Obviously.

From my perspective, this whole thread has been "equality under the law" and that's the only rational way to view the subject.

Equality under the law has everything to do with good government, but nothing to do with good citizenship.

I'd also be curious to know why you yourself don't support equality under the law in your ideological views.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Um, wrong. Citizenship implies a society and governance.

And I do support equality under the law and always have. I have no idea where you are getting the impression I don't.

That's not the only rational way to view the subject, because it doesn't define the parameters of what acceptable law can be.

Is it okay to legislate that everybody gets the same car, for free? Is that just, moral, or responsible? Your narrow constraints on the discussion don't allow for such considerations, because it tautologically declares that, so long as we're all equal under the law, everything's okay.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

A citizen implies a government exists, but it is not the same thing as a government. Equality under the law is not the same thing as equality under citizens. Equality as we are discussing it here has nothing to do with citizenship as a value.



No, you don't.

You advocate different laws for different groups of people all the time. Paying fraudulent lip-service to something is not the same as supporting it.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I don't know who you're directing those questions to Kaffis.

Sorry, they were to you. Belated posting, and I forgot to quote where you declared you were considering the entire discussion as "equality under the law."

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

What do you mean by "citizens as a value"? Citizenship is what we're discussing. By definition that means how a member of a society (the citizen) interacts with the rest of society.



Care to give me examples of where you think I'm paying "fraudulent lip-service"? I think you're full of **** on this.

Rynar:

I'm not going to get bogged down in the equality debate, but as far as personal freedom and general good are concerned, Adam Smith would like to have a word with you

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

I'm not sure where you're getting this, because I haven't stated anything of the sort here. All I've stated is that belief in equality being a tenant of good citizenship means "equality under the law" in my book. Not that everyone should be totally equal, each in their own saltbox house with a white picket fence.

It means that is someone commits a crime, the poor guy should get the same punishment that the rich guy does that the chinese guys does that the white guy does, etc. It means that public schooling should be of the same quality regardless of if you live in a poor neighborhood or a rich one, in the city or in a rural area. It means that if you're in love with someone and want to make a commitment to them you should be able to get married, regardless of what gender your partner is. It means that if you're a citizen of the United States that you have the same base opportunities as anyone else does.

A typo. See my above edit. Also, stop using society and government interchangeably. Citizenship implies a relationship to a government, nothing more. Citizenship has nothing at all to do with direct interactions with other citizens.




You advocate a graduated income tax, hate crime laws, affirmative action, entitlement programs, etc.. These laws all treat different people very differently, and discard the framework of "equal under the law".

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

The general good, and "common good" as is being discussed here are very different ideas.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

That is why you fail - Yoda

Citizenship has everything to do with direct interactions with other citizens. Yes, society and government are different, however they are very much linked. Government if you will is the formalized and authoritative will of society. Be an *** to your neighbor and before too long the government is going to be involved. It is this basic truth that libertarians seem to have such difficulty grasping. I'm not even advocating that it's "right" or "just". It's reality. To ignore it is to forever fail at being able to understand either society or government.



Interesting. Just to clarify your misunderstandings:

Graduated Income Tax - Haven't really come down hard on this one. I like the idea of a flat tax, but I'm not sure it would work. Not crazy about our current tax structure at all, and certainly wouldn't say I advocate it.

Hate Crime Laws - Dislike them and find them redundant. Would prefer we actually were just successful at making the current laws stick in prosecution. I understand why they get created today with how our current legal system works.

Affirmative Action - Wish it wasn't necessary, but don't see any other way to try and correct centuries of in-equality. I forsee a time in the future where they won't be necessary and will be removed. At best a necessary evil.

Entitlement Programs - Very vague, so not really sure what you mean here. This definition is VERY broad with this group. I do advocate support network programs that help people who are down on their luck with a leg up to get back to being productive members of society. I do this not because I "like" the programs, but because I firmly believe that they have the least cost to society as a whole.

Equality does not mean sameness, nor does Freedom have anything to do with differences. You are trying to impose your own ideological predjudices on the words.

Throughout this discussion you are conflating the meaning of "equal" with that of the words "alike" and "same." The words are not synonymous. IIRC, Madeline L'Engle addressed the difference clearly in A Wrinkle in Time, and the climx of the book revolves around the fact that these concepts are different.



No, he clearly did not. You are basing this on your misunderstanding of the word "equal".

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Equal (=) means exactly the same as. Not "similar". Not "reminds me of".

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Aizle:

No, no it doesn't.

It never has, and I would appreciate it if you would stop co-opting language to suit your arguments.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Um, no they aren't. It depends on your definition of equal, I guess. To me, equality means no man or woman is held above another in the eyes of the government. I guess then, that you believe Thomas Jefferson was a socialist? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."



Yeah, I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite. Personal responsibility supports the common good because it eliminates the need for entitlement programs, which are clearly a burden on society.

It means no such thing. If I say an Su-27 is equal to an F-15, that does not mean the two aircraft are exactly the same.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

It means exactly that.

I don't know your gobltey gook, and I don't care to, but if the fools describing them as equal don't do so within well defined perameters that are actually the same, then they are nothing more than that. Fools. Equal means the same. Exactly the same. Consult your mathbook.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

When you're doing math, sure, it means things are identical in quantity.

It's not being used as a mathematical term in the context we're discussing here, however.

Just like my jet fighter example, let's take another. If Timmy has 5 oranges and Bobby 2 oranges, while Alice has 4 apples and Sarah 3 apples, the boys have an equal number of fruits to the girls. They don't have identical fruits; an apple is clearly not an orange just like an F-15 is clearly not identical to an Su-27.

It's not uncommon in writing to refer to someone else as a person's "equal" at some task, or even to say "in every way his equal". That doesn't meant they are identical twins.



Of the above definitions, only a portion of the first one fits what you are saying.

In any case, your argument is spurious on its face. If equal meant "identical" that would mean the writing "All mean are created equal" meant that Thomas Jefferson thought all men are exactly identical. I wasn't aware that human cloning was so advanced in 1776; this is quite the revelation!

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye, you said "equal number" in your example.

Equal in geometry means the same dimensions, angles, and # of sides, for instance. Equal in every way, in other words. Unless you constrain your declaration of equality, it does equate (see?) to talking about every aspect.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Oh goody! Time for a semantics debate!

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The meaning of words is important...

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Yes they are. And those meanings are continually micro managed into oblivion by people like you who can only see the world in black and white. Please knock it off and learn that the english language is NOT black and white. That words have multiple meanings and nuance to them, and attempt to figure out the difference and what the meaning of context is.

Shut the **** up, and no.

Every single thing you believe to be nuanced is just something you were too intellectually lazy to break down, and so you slapped a label on it to defend your own laziness and willful ignorance. There is an understandable cause and effect to everything. There are words to describe every specific. It is the reason we have different words for different things. If there were no distinctions to be drawn, then one word would have sufficed. However that isn't the case, is it? Just because you choose to cheapen your language doesn't mean the rest of us humanity should sell itself short. You won't make me prisoner to your limited use of language, and cheapness of ideas.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20