The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 2:50 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 11:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Quote:
(CNN) -- The international community on Monday condemned an Israeli naval commando raid on a flotilla carrying aid for Palestinians in Gaza, leaving 9 people dead.

Israel claimed it was defending itself, with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) saying the soldiers' lives were in danger after they were attacked with "severe physical violence, including live fire, weapons, knives and clubs."

The Free Gaza Movement, one of the organizers of the aid, said that Israeli commandos dropped from a helicopter onto the deck of one of the ships and "immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians."

A senior Israeli military official, speaking on condition of anonymity in an independent account cleared by military censors, said Israeli troops were planning to deal with peace activists on a Gaza-bound flotilla, "not to fight."

The military official said most of the nine deaths were Turks. Twenty people were wounded. Seven Israeli soldiers were also wounded, one seriously.

All six boats in the flotilla were boarded according to the IDF but only one, the Mavi Mamara, offered resistance; the other five surrendered peacefully, the military said.

A host of nations condemned the military action and called for an investigation.

On Monday Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu canceled Tuesday's scheduled meeting with U.S. President Barack Obama, according to Israeli government officials.

The United Nations Security Council will hold talks at 1 p.m. ET Monday on the incident.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said Monday he was "shocked by reports of killing of people in boats carrying supplies to Gaza. I condemn the violence and Israel must explain."

The Spanish and French governments called the action "disproportionate." The Italian foreign minister asked the European Union to investigate, and several nations, including Greece and Sweden, were summoning their Israeli ambassadors.

An indignant Turkey recalled its ambassador from Israel, canceled three planned military exercises with the Israeli military and called home its youth national football team, which had two games scheduled in Israel, said Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was in Chile, but will return after meeting with the Chilean president, Arinc said. The chief of the Turkish military was cutting short a trip to Egypt. The Turkish foreign minister, in Venezuela, was calling the United Nations Security Council to an emergency meeting, Arinc said.

"This operation will leave a bloody stain on the history of humanity," Arinc said. A Turkish group, the Humanitarian Relief Foundation or IHH, was one of the organizers of the flotilla, but people from various nations were aboard.

In a statement, Bahrain called it a "barbaric attack" on the part of Israel.

The British Foreign Minister William Hague said: "We have consistently advised against attempting to access Gaza in this way, because of the risks involved. But at the same time, there is a clear need for Israel to act with restraint and in line with international obligations."

Fifteen of the people captured were transferred to an Israeli prison in Beer Sheva, a spokesman for the Israeli Prison authority said Monday.

The Free Gaza Movement, one of the groups sponsoring the flotilla, disputed Israel's claim of violence by people aboard the ships.

"At about 4:30 am, Israeli commandos dropped from a helicopter onto deck of Turkish ship, immediately opened fire on unarmed civilians," said a post on the group's Twitter page.

Video aired on CNN sister network CNN Turk showed soldiers abseiling onto the deck of a ship from a helicopter above. The boarding of the ships took place more than 70 nautical miles outside Israeli territorial waters, according to IHH.

The Turkish foreign ministry said the incident "might cause irreversible consequences" in the nation's relationship with Israel.

"Israel has once again clearly demonstrated that it does not value human lives and peaceful initiatives through targeting innocent civilians," the statement said. "We strongly condemn these inhuman acts of Israel."

Meanwhile, a protest that began outside the Israeli embassy in Istanbul on Sunday continued into Monday. Although largely peaceful, police did use water cannons at one point to keep demonstrators at bay. Israel issued a "serious travel warning" for Israelis visiting Turkey. Those planning to travel to Turkey were asked to postpone their trip, while those in Turkey were advised to stay indoors.

The Israeli PM office has issues a serious travel warning for Israeli travelers visiting Turkey. The warning calls Israelis who are about to travel into Turkey to postpone their trip and for Israelis in Turkey to remain indoors and avoid presence in the city centers.

In Gaza, where the flotilla was headed, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri called for global support of the Palestinian cause.

"The Israeli attack on the Freedom Flotilla is an ugly crime and against international law and this reflects the nature of the criminal Israeli occupation," Zuhri said. "We call upon the free world Arab and Muslim world to stand in support and help and support the international activists who have been subjected to killing in the middle of the sea."

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas called for three days of mourning in the Palestinian territories to honor the lives lost.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev accused the leaders of the flotilla of looking for a fight.

"They wanted to make a political statement. They wanted violence," according to Regev, who said Israel wanted a peaceful interception of the ships trying to break Israel's blockade of Gaza. "They are directly responsible for the violence and the deaths that occurred."

The convoy of boats approached Gaza in defiance of an Israeli blockade and had been shadowed by three Israeli warships. Free Gaza had reported Sunday that they had been contacted by the Israeli navy.

The boats left European ports in a consolidated protest organized by two pro-Palestinian groups to deliver tons of food and other aid to Gaza to break a blockade imposed by Israel in 2007.

The maritime convoys were organized by both the Free Gaza Movement and the IHH, a humanitarian relief foundation affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood religious group.

Israel said Sunday that Western and Turkish authorities have accused IHH of having "working relations" with different terrorist organizations.


I am growing very weary of Israel. I understand that they must be able to defend themselves; however, they need to start making nice with their neighbors and the rest of the world. This is beyond the point of ridiculous.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
The fact that they boarded (probably to search) the ships isn't bad, it's still Israeli territory and these people were violating it. What's disturbing is the number of people who would defend Israel if the Free Gaza Movement's claims turn out to be accurate, that they just started shooting without provocation.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Xequecal wrote:
The fact that they boarded (probably to search) the ships isn't bad, it's still Israeli territory and these people were violating it. What's disturbing is the number of people who would defend Israel if the Free Gaza Movement's claims turn out to be accurate, that they just started shooting without provocation.


Interesting. I have more of a problem with the boarding. It was in international waters, as I understand, and that's begging for trouble. They were apparently attacked on the ship, but you can hardly claim self defense when you are on somebody else's ship in international waters.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 3:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:49 pm
Posts: 3455
Location: St. Louis, MO
So would you have problems with it if Israel had allowed the ships to reach the blockade and then sunk them?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 5:19 pm 
Offline
Eatin yur toes.
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:49 am
Posts: 836
The news here, from an Israeli PR flack, was reporting that the initial resistance was with sticks/clubs, and that the live fire was actually from a captured Israeli pistol.

Seems amazing to me. I find it very hard to imagine an Israeli commando boarding party allowing their weapons to be used against them, but there you are.

Im reserving any judgement till the full details come out, but boarding in international waters at nighttime seems asking for a panic reaction; still, if its genuinely a humanitarian mission Im not sure why the goods couldnt simply be cleared through the UN and certified under bond, removing the necessity for a weapons/customs check. Do Israel not trust the UN?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:27 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:54 am
Posts: 2369
I wouldnt trust the UN if I were Israel. That said no idea what the full story is here. I saw some grainy video with the claim that it was a ship run/operated/full of Turkish militants and the video showed people fighting with pipes and such.


_________________
“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:41 pm 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
At that point I would have gotten my men off the boat and sunk it with rockets.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2010 6:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
I wouldn't be opposed to treating a ship refusing to pass through the blockade checkpoint as hostile to begin with, to be honest. I'm not advocating torpedoing them outright, but nothing I've heard has upset me overly in that regard. The ship was instructed to pass through the proper channels, and refused. That gets you boarded, and when I'm on your turf and you've proven resistant already, I'm at a disadvantage and likely to face hostile reactions. You don't get the kid gloves, at that point.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:02 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15740
Location: Combat Information Center
Blockades are a historically complex matter. There have been several attempts in international law to define what is and isn't a legal blockade (although it is definitely an act of war against the target of the blockade) and none of them have proven terribly successful; ultimately what really matters is naval strength, not legalities. In WWI, for example, the British blockade was quite successful, and despite their frequent violations of neutral trade rights (which was annoying) ultimately the German response helped provoke the U.S. into the war (because it resulted in people getting killed). The questions of legality contributed to nothing but dithering on our part, although to be fair, dithering over the war was what the Wilson administration did whenever it had nothing else to keep it busy.

In any case, there is nothing essentially wrong with Israel bockading Gaza given the desire of a number of nations to supply weapons to the Palestinians. The only reason people fuss over the blockade itself is the fact that it's Israel doing it. Normally, in the past, however, the procedure has been to stop ships and inspect them for contraband, although that gets into complex legal issues again dating back to WWI since where something is going may or may not make it contra band. Still, there is nothing wrong with stopping the ships, nor does it matter if it was in international waters. That's what makes it a blockade instead of a customs inspection.

As for the firing, the bottom line is that apparently the other 5 ships acted sensibly and didn't try to fight a hopeless battle, but one did:

Quote:
All six boats in the flotilla were boarded according to the IDF but only one, the Mavi Mamara, offered resistance; the other five surrendered peacefully, the military said.


I see nothing to contradict the idea that violence was confined to one vessel, and this really does not support the idea that Israel went out there and started shooting.

Quote:
The news here, from an Israeli PR flack, was reporting that the initial resistance was with sticks/clubs, and that the live fire was actually from a captured Israeli pistol.

Seems amazing to me. I find it very hard to imagine an Israeli commando boarding party allowing their weapons to be used against them, but there you are.

Im reserving any judgement till the full details come out, but boarding in international waters at nighttime seems asking for a panic reaction; still, if its genuinely a humanitarian mission Im not sure why the goods couldnt simply be cleared through the UN and certified under bond, removing the necessity for a weapons/customs check. Do Israel not trust the UN?


I don't see any reason they should trust the U.N. In any case, however yes, it is highly unlikely that the boarders had a pistol taken and used on them resulting in 7 injuries.

Quote:
The military official said most of the nine deaths were Turks. Twenty people were wounded. Seven Israeli soldiers were also wounded, one seriously.


There may have been only one pistol since apparently improvised weapons were used, but I'm really thinking moe like several pistols, and not ones taken off the boarders. Even if it was, taking someone's weapon and then shooting at them with it, especially when already attacking them with sticks and such doesn't excuse you. All you did was escalate a conflict you couldn't win. People who start a fight with armed men when unarmed themselves aren't victims; they're idiots.

Elmarieh wrote:
At that point I would have gotten my men off the boat and sunk it with rockets.


I don't think I would have done this simply because it's going to be more costly in international terms by a long shot. It's also going to make it harder to prove you were attacked since you sank the evidence.

If the boat had machine guns or RPGS or something and opened fire before the troops boarded it, that would be another story, or if it revealed heavy weapons once they were aboard.

I'm also not sure what you mean by rockets, but if you mean unguided rockets from helicopter rocket pods if the transport helo had escorts, those would probably be adequate. I hope you didn't mean antiship missiles like a Penguin, Exocet or Harpoon. That's a lot of moeny to sink a small boat, and those types of weapons have a nasty habit of deciding to attack another target in close proximity, which is great if you're firing at a bunch of Iranian gunboats or something but not so great when you have one belligerant in a group of 5 other merchant ships you don't want to sink. SAMs in an antisurface role would work better sine they are controlled by the launching ship, but again - expensive. There are a number of other options as well but they may or may not have been on hand.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
shuyung wrote:
So would you have problems with it if Israel had allowed the ships to reach the blockade and then sunk them?


Of course.

First, Israel has not been managing it's blockade well, and has not allowed sufficient humanitarian goods through. This results in ALLIES of Israel determining it necessary to make a point and run the blockade. So far, in terms of fault, we're even IMO.

If Israel had suspected (with reasonable evidence to support this) that the ships carried goods of war, then they could/should be stormed or captured in some fashion.

If not, then this becomes an unjustified attack.

Regardless, it's stupidity on the part of Israel. They have not shown me that they are overwhelmingly interested in the well being of Gaza civilians. This, at a minimum, is self-induced bad press that they don't need. Israel is the Mike Tyson to Gaza's "***** who steps" and it's getting very old.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:25 pm 
Offline
The King
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:34 am
Posts: 3219
I don't blame Israel at all after reading some of the things these "peace activists" did.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 86,00.html

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:37 pm 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
No I meant rockets from helicopters since the video showed they were present. Something akin to FFAR or maybe exactly FFAR since they might use our own older stuff.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:44 pm
Posts: 2315
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
shuyung wrote:
So would you have problems with it if Israel had allowed the ships to reach the blockade and then sunk them?


Of course.

First, Israel has not been managing it's blockade well, and has not allowed sufficient humanitarian goods through. This results in ALLIES of Israel determining it necessary to make a point and run the blockade. So far, in terms of fault, we're even IMO.

If Israel had suspected (with reasonable evidence to support this) that the ships carried goods of war, then they could/should be stormed or captured in some fashion.

If not, then this becomes an unjustified attack.

Regardless, it's stupidity on the part of Israel. They have not shown me that they are overwhelmingly interested in the well being of Gaza civilians. This, at a minimum, is self-induced bad press that they don't need. Israel is the Mike Tyson to Gaza's "***** who steps" and it's getting very old.


The entire point of the blockade is to starve/freeze the Gazans into accepting Israel's terms. (get rid of Hamas) Israel doesn't even really deny this.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 12:48 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Regardless, it's stupidity on the part of Israel. They have not shown me that they are overwhelmingly interested in the well being of Gaza civilians.
Well, at least they haven't show you that they're actively trying to harm civilians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:56 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:54 am
Posts: 2369
More video, peace activists on the boat throwing stun grenades and brandishing weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6sAEYpHF24

_________________
“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:03 am 
Offline
I got nothin.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 pm
Posts: 11160
Location: Arafys, AKA El Müso Guapo!
Yeah, you know what?

**** them.

_________________
Image
Holy shitsnacks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:33 pm 
Offline
The King
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:34 am
Posts: 3219
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137850

So after all the crap, mean ole Israel gets what supplies were on board and tries to deliver them to Hamas but Hamas says...nah, no thanks.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:10 pm 
Offline
Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 5073
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvS9PXZ3RWM&NR=1

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 287 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group