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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:57 pm 
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It turns out Jim Joyce is the cause of the BP oil spill.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Baseball
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:24 am 
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Very sad at that call. :( I know umpiring has to be hard, and I have to imagine this umpire was a bit jumpy already with so much on the line... but to err on the side against the pitcher, especially to such a big margin given that the call wasn't even close? I guess it had to do with the pitcher putting his foot down on the base after making the catch that adds some trickiness to this one, but it still doesn't really seem that close to me. If that runner was a bit faster, I could definitely understand with the wrong call, especially with a tie going to the runner and all that, but... ugh. Appeal, please.

And in other news, that shutout sweep of the Phillies was something else, yes. :p We're really lucky for that perfect game by Halladay, because without it the Philadelphia morale would be in the gutter. Our offense hasn't just been bad, it has been horrible, and not just for 2 or 3 games, but since May 22nd.

We went into that day being, if memory serves, tie for the 3rd most runs scored in MLB this year. We had 7 hitters in our starting lineup batting over .300. Counting that day, we've played 11 games since. We've been 2-9 in those 11, which is bad, but nothing to type up 2+ paragraphs about online I suppose. We have only scored 14 runs in those 11 games, however. Our pitching has been really quite good for the Phillies (who do not have the best pitching rotation by any stretch of the imagination) during this time. You can even play with the numbers some to make it even worse -- at one point it was 10 runs in the last 9 games, which was last done by the 2006 Cubs who ended that season with 66 wins. 3 of those 10 runs didn't even count for much if you want to add in a psychological bent, being 3 runs scored in a then 8 to nothing game in the bottom of the 9th.

We do have some injuries and all, probably well above the league average in injury severity on a team, but we can't even really use that as much of an excuse. Utley, Howard, and Werth just haven't been doing anything. :( At this point I would genuinely, honestly be happy to lose a game 9 to 7 or something.

I'm sure this will end sooner or later, so I'm not too worried yet for what really matters: your win-loss record come the end of September... but it's just not a fun time to be a fan. Losing games is one thing, but losing like this is just hard to watch.

I need to find a good stats website that can tell me runners left on base, just to sate my morbid curiosity... :p


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:08 am 
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Roophus Gunthar wrote:
It turns out Jim Joyce is the cause of the BP oil spill.

Roophus is your signature an advertisement?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:16 am 
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That call was brutal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:21 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
That call was brutal.


First week in my life I decide to pay attention and watch baseball....after that call I think I'll go back to my other hobbies. Don't they have an appeal process like in football?? That call should have been overturned. I don't understand why they didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Baseball
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:13 am 
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Noggle wrote:
I need to find a good stats website that can tell me runners left on base, just to sate my morbid curiosity... :p


http://www.baseball-reference.com/

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:13 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
That call was brutal.


First week in my life I decide to pay attention and watch baseball....after that call I think I'll go back to my other hobbies. Don't they have an appeal process like in football?? That call should have been overturned. I don't understand why they didn't.

They have instituted limited instant replay, but only in certain circumstances:

1. If a home run ball was fair or foul
2. If a home run ball really cleared the fence
3. Questions of fan interference

And, that's it.

I sympathize with the desire not to have more use of instant replay in baseball. I hate it in football. It probably dooms baseball to eventual irrelevance, but so be it. Mistakes are made, and that's the charm of baseball, so long as you aren't on the wrong side of the call.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Eh, I can see where you are coming from on that one, technology has taken the sport out of a lot of sports....but that call was terrible and unfair.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:21 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Eh, I can see where you are coming from on that one, technology has taken the sport out of a lot of sports....but that call was terrible and unfair.


It happens all the time. The only reason there is any buzz is because of the situation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Yeah...Nitefox and I had just had a conversation the day before where he was explaining to me what constituted a no-hitter and a perfect game so that was the only reason I even knew about it.
There has only been like 20 of these in baseball history, right? How many more would there be if there weren't bad calls like this one?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:29 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Yeah...Nitefox and I had just had a conversation the day before where he was explaining to me what constituted a no-hitter and a perfect game so that was the only reason I even knew about it.
There has only been like 20 of these in baseball history, right? How many more would there be if there weren't bad calls like this one?


How many happened because of a bad call like this? These things tend to balance themselves out.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Good point.

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Baseball
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:33 pm 
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So it appears the call will stand.

I expect Galarraga will appear in a footnote or with an asterisk or something. The Wikipedia article on perfect games already explains the situation clearly enough. Anyone that already knows about this game yesterday knows that Galarraga really did get the first 27 (and the 28th!) batter out, so he's up there with the other 20 pitchers to me. I don't need an official's call to somehow certify Galarraga's performance.

Perhaps there was an occasion in the past where a bad call ruined another one, perhaps in the 5th or 6th inning where it wouldn't get any press, especially if you add in the mental effect that may have on subsequent batters. I am open to that possibility. It doesn't lessen Galarraga's efforts any, though, and IMO he deserves mention every time there is a list of pitchers that have thrown perfect games.

Myself, I'm fond of instant replay in pretty much every sport. I think it makes the game purer to what actually happens on the field, which should be the only thing that matters. Most of the time when bad calls are made it doesn't matter that much, especially in a game like baseball with such a long season... but there are times, such as this, where a bad call is pretty huge. I don't see that the "human element" of officiating is in any way beneficial to any game.

That said, I think I'm in the minority here, and if that's the case I don't mind it too much. :p Its implementation would be really important -- the instant replay they have already is extremely unobtrusive, but applying it to balls and strikes would be way too much. Yet, I can imagine a World Series game 7 decided by a clearly bad call on a ball that was called a strike, so I don't know what the answer is. With today's technology they could easily get all balls and strikes called accurately via fancy machine, but that would be quite a change. I do know that that list of 20 (21*!) players would be very different with something like this implemented. Halladay sure was getting some questionable strikes. :p Of course, the opposing pitcher was getting them as well, which is what makes the error-filled human element "acceptable" I guess... I suppose I just see it as a necessary evil.

In any case...

LK: Bad calls of this magnitude are pretty rare! Every game will have bad calls on strikes and balls, and there are occasions where you'll see this same call happen without ruining baseball history. There are plenty of reasons to like or dislike any sport, and while this is a strike against baseball IMO more than most sports, it's usually not nearly so big a deal. This was an inopportune time to start getting into the game. :p

Rynar: Thanks for that link! I'll give it a proper dig through sometime later as I am a bit busy now, but it looks pretty sweet. I've been using MLB.com's stats, which is fine if all you want are the basic stats that are recorded in the scoring of a game. If you're looking for anything built off those numbers, like ERA+ or ballpark stats, and you're left in the cold. This site looks promising, however!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:08 pm 
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Thanks Noggel. I didn't think about the application of instant replay on calling strikes and balls....now that I think about it, I can see the argument for not having instant replay in baseball. (Love it in football though!)
Good to know that bad calls that big are rare...I guess its all just part of the game. I even think people enjoy arguing bad plays, haha, like people enjoy hockey fights.
All of that being said, I am really starting to enjoy baseball now that it's actually being explained to me. Still don't quite understand what a balk is though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Once a pitcher's motion commits him towards any base (including home plate), he may not redirect his motion towards any other base.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Nitefox explained it like that too, its just hard to picture...I think I actually need to see one.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:41 pm 
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The more I think about it, the more I think the ump needs to side with the pitcher in that particular situation. I'd rather he blow the call, calling the runner out - giving the perfect game to the pitcher, rather than blow the call and take a perfect game away from a pitcher. Worst case scenario, he makes a bad call and calls out the runner when he was really safe, the pitcher still sat down 26 straight, with the 27th being a close call. I'd rather he screw up that way than screw up the way he did last night.

I think it's actually a good thing the commissioner didn't reverse the call. It'll go down in history as showing how ridiculous the MLB is with their "tradition," excuse they keep falling back on for not implementing replay. Galarraga will go down in history for being the only pitcher to set down 28 straight batters. I kind of like it that way. Reversing the call the next day would've been the easy escape to save face for the MLB. Let's face it, the MLB is too full of itself to even admit it has problems (see the steroid era). At least the ump had the courage to face his bad call. The MLB as a whole could have prevented this by getting over their denial that they need some form of instant replay.

By the way, Granholm, the governor or Michigan, issued a proclamation stating he pitched a perfect game. Not that that matters, but I thought it was funny to read. Also, he still got his corvette for pitching a perfect game. Honestly, I think he made more of a splash than any of the other perfect games, simply based on the controversy surrounding it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:22 pm 
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No. Officials aren't supposed to side with anyone. They are supposed to call the game as they see it, without bias.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:24 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Nitefox explained it like that too, its just hard to picture...I think I actually need to see one.

I doubt that would help. Most balks are extremely subtle things, a pitcher minutely motioning towards home before starting his pickoff move to first, for instance.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:34 pm 
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LadyKate wrote:
Thanks Noggel. I didn't think about the application of instant replay on calling strikes and balls....now that I think about it, I can see the argument for not having instant replay in baseball. (Love it in football though!)
Good to know that bad calls that big are rare...I guess its all just part of the game. I even think people enjoy arguing bad plays, haha, like people enjoy hockey fights.
All of that being said, I am really starting to enjoy baseball now that it's actually being explained to me. Still don't quite understand what a balk is though.

For a balk, there area few good videos on YouTube that I took a look at after the Dodgers won the game on one on Monday. Yeah, here it is, this guy does a great job of explaining it (horrible sound, though).

Given that fact that each team plays 162 games, giving us 2,430 games per year, yeah, you can say that blown calls like this are pretty rare.

Anything you want to ask about baseball, fire away. You have some hard-core geeks here, I think (present company included!).

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 Post subject: Re: I Love Baseball
PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:35 pm 
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Lil more complicated then I thought. So there are 13 ways to balk?
[youtube]DYu6yoji9_U[/youtube]

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ROFL Aethien! That is the vid I just found while I was youtubing for Balk explanations, hahaha! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
No. Officials aren't supposed to side with anyone. They are supposed to call the game as they see it, without bias.

Since we both know you're living in a dream world, let's just agree to disagree. I do agree for the most part with you, until you get into a situation like this where it's just ridiculous what happened. You're line of thought leads to things like what happened yesterday, which is laughable. My line of thought harms nothing. If you're unsure and it's extremely close, side with the team who's dominating. If you're not unsure, then don't do that by any means. I'm just saying, there's no way he saw that play last night and though "he's DEFINITELY out!." At best, he thought he might have barely, ever so slightly tapped his toe on first base before the ball. That's in a absolute best case scenario. If you're that unsure about it, you side with the perfect pitcher, and I'll back that up to the day I die. It has nothing to do with losing integrity of the sport. Want to talk about losing integrity of the sport? Look to Bud Selig and the steroid era and how he's still in denial. Screw that. Give the kid his perfect game and get over it. This shouldn't even be this big of a deal. If this were any other sport, the proper adjustments would've been made. Hell, in hockey they change goals/assists all the time, after the fact when they look at replay. It's not even a process that forces the refs to wait. The proper people review the goals while the game is being played, then adjust accordingly.

85% of the nation agrees he should reverse the blown call that the ump admitted to blowing. Why drag Jim Joyce through the mud anymore on this issue? You can't possibly tell me it's because of tradition. The tradition excuse for not getting instant replay went out the window after you f'd up a perfect game call with 1 out to go. Again, 85% of the country wants it changed. Isn't this game for the fans? OH, no, it's Bud Selig's game.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:21 pm 
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No, we don't both know that. I feel your position is absurd. The charge of any official is to call the entire game as he sees it, and without bias.

Officials aren't supposed to call the game objectively? They are supposed to favor the dominate? Roy Halladay should have a larger strike zone than Jamie Moyer? Albert Pujoles should have a smaller strike zone than Kahlil Greene? If you advocate one, you advocate all, because you are arguing against impartiality in favor of preferred outcome. Why not advocate calling a biased game in favor of the Yankees vs. any opponent, since they have the largest following in the country, and are the most dominate, and most people would prefer that outcome. If you want to watch entertainment instead of sport, I would suggest the WWE.

As to implementing instant replay, the reason baseball suffers in the ratings is because most people don't have the patience to watch it for the duration of time it takes to play the game. The most common complaints are that the game is too long and too boring. What you advocate has the potential to add 10-15 minutes to each game.

As to your statement about Bud Selig's game, and tradition? That's foolish. You play the game by the rules established prior to the game. You don't change the rules in the post game because you didn't like the outcome, and then apply them backwards. Your stance is ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:59 pm 
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Officials aren't supposed to call the game objectively? They are supposed to favor the dominate? Roy Halladay should have a larger strike zone than Jamie Moyer? Albert Pujoles should have a smaller strike zone than Kahlil Greene? If you advocate one, you advocate all, because you are arguing against impartiality in favor of preferred outcome. Why not advocate calling a biased game in favor of the Yankees vs. any opponent, since they have the largest following in the country, and are the most dominate, and most people would prefer that outcome. If you want to watch entertainment instead of sport, I would suggest the WWE.

Based on circumstance, refs should change the way they call a game, yes. It happens in every sport. I'm glad it does too. What if refs called "unbiased" calls every time they saw a penalty in a playoff hockey game in overtime? What'd happen if these same "unbiased" refs called ticky tack penalties on the closing drive in the Superbowl? Be glad refs have some discretion. It's not all just about being objective. I find it ironic you probably desire to keep umps in the game because of the human element, yet you want unbiased, nonobjective rulings. If you want completely nonobjective, unbiased calls, they should institute a fancy robot with laser guided strike zones for behind the plate. The fact that there are humans out there means they will be somewhat biased and/or objective. If you don't want that in the game, you're going to have to eliminate officials entirely.

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As to implementing instant replay, the reason baseball suffers in the ratings is because most people don't have the patience to watch it for the duration of time it takes to play the game. The most common complaints are that the game is too long and too boring. What you advocate has the potential to add 10-15 minutes to each game.

Easy solution: Each manager gets one reg flag, like in football. Each call would be over in 2 minutes, like football. An extra 4 minutes total doesn't seem like that much to prevent things like last night. This is just another lame excuse traditionalist throw out there to prevent having instant replay. Get with the times or get your head out of your behind. There are ways around the time factor for instant replay. Look at the NBA. They get it right, but it doesn't slow up the game. It's not like it'd be used over and over. They could limit it however much they want, they make the rules.
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As to your statement about Bud Selig's game, and tradition? That's foolish. You play the game by the rules established prior to the game. You don't change the rules in the post game because you didn't like the outcome, and then apply them backwards. Your stance is ridiculous.

You're right, let's never change the game for the better. I'd rather live in the past anyway. You know why they didn't have replay when Babe Ruth was around? It wasn't technically feasible. It didn't even become an option until the past 20 years or so.

At the end of the day, the kid pitched a perfect game and he'll go down in history for it. In fact, he may go down in history more so than almost all of the rest of them who've done it in the past. I suppose there is some good to come from this.

*Edit*

Just a few quotes from some of the 85% of people who feel it should've been overturned:
Quote:
I've said baseball should've instituted replay years ago. I don't know why baseball purists are so bent up on this issue. And after all the bad calls last postseason...in someways MLB deserves this bad publicity for this circumstance. The saying is, you reap what you sow. As long as Bud has his head up his arse when stuff like this happens, baseball's never going to move forward. That may be too strong, but stuff like this is a microcosm of what plagues baseball. A seeming disconnect with the fans on some levels.

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Well put. MLB has a long history of waiting until something drastic happens to finally change its ways, though. It seems like they try to deliberately piss off its fans. In my life I've seen the strike, a tie in an all-star game, home field advantage being decided on a alternating basis - then by the winner of the all-star game (both make no sense), dragging its *** on steroids, and dragging its *** on instant replay. MLB is like a stubborn old man who likes to yell at kids to get off its lawn.

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