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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:53 am 
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Did you know the BP spill was Ayn Rands fault? One of my liberal friends posted this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca ... 98305.html

Some excerpts:

Quote:
And why not? It's the free market after all. As I watch these robots slice the riser from the blowout preventer and read the news about lakes of oil moving towards the coasts of Florida, I'm wondering who to blame for this. The list is long, but, in part, I blame anyone who bought into the lines: "government is the problem" and "the era of big government is over." It's been systematic deregulation and the elevation of free market libertarian laissez-faire capitalism that have wrought this damage and allowed potentially destructive corporations to write their own rules and do as they please.

Does anyone seriously believe that BP has suddenly become a philanthropic venture interested in doing whatever it takes -- sparing no expense -- to make the Gulf region whole again? It will do the absolute minimum necessary to weasel its way through this crisis. Not a red cent more.


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Forty years of corporate deregulation by conservative Republican Ayn Rand fetishists (and their Democratic enablers) have successfully poisoned the Gulf of Mexico. Ironically, the most liberal pro-regulation president in this same span of time -- the president who has announced on several occasions a significant break from Reagan's "government is the problem" mantra -- appears to be the only politician being blamed for this so far. One of many reasons why I fear it'll be another 40 years before we roll back this free market monster.

And, as I watch this video, the solution occurs to me: they should just plug the oil leak with every single existing copy of Atlas Shrugged.


Oh ****, it's on now! This was my response, which was only meh:

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Yeah what we need is more regulation, which is why we are drilling 5000 under water in the first place. And also to blame Ayn Rand for this.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:17 am 
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Seriously? The single worst environmental disaster in the US happens and you think the answer is less oversight? Can you explain your reasoning there? When have corporations EVER shown themselves to be good wards of the environment?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:21 am 
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Compared to the wonderful environmental situations that China and the USSR sponsored on behalf of their people. Look at both sides before you talk.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:23 am 
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And the Free market is stepping in, BP is trying to fix it, while the government for once freely admitted they lack the skills, equipment, ability to solve the problem. Bp is going to pay the price for this, I have not heard any libertarian/conservative/what have you argue even a peep for no punishment.

If you are angry organize a boycott, don't buy from them, hit them where it hurts, vent that rage!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:26 am 
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I think one of the reasons this disaster is so large is that the depths involved made it very difficult to contain. I also believe companies are drilling so deep because of restrictions on where they can drill, i.e. 5000 feet deep as opposed to ANWR or the closer inland. But mostly, I disagree with the idea that deregulation is the cause of this mess. This spill is just an easy opening for big government proponents to push more government oversight. Spills will happen from time to time unfortunately. There are regulations and we're not even sure BP followed the existing ones nevermind clamor for more.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:28 am 
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The responses to the BP oil spill, from the public, from the government, and from the company itself have been a master class, a perfect exhibition of enterprise greed, political indifference, and corporate apologetics.

If ever there was a case of seeing, demonstrable and in action, the power and Svengali-esque sway held by the largest companies in the world over the government, over the media, and over the people, this is it.

As I said before, BP executives, at this point, are basically Spaceballs.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:53 am 
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FarSky wrote:
The responses to the BP oil spill, from the public, from the government, and from the company itself have been a master class, a perfect exhibition of enterprise greed, political indifference, and corporate apologetics.

If ever there was a case of seeing, demonstrable and in action, the power and Svengali-esque sway held by the largest companies in the world over the government, over the media, and over the people, this is it.

As I said before, BP executives, at this point, are basically Spaceballs.


What were they supposed to do? This is a new problem with no known solutions. Had this been a government rig, and a government owned company, you likely would be recieving nothiong but misinformation, and we would be even farther away from a solution.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:58 am 
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If people gave a **** the market would respond. The market is saying that cheap gas is more important to people right now than clean wildlife.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:14 am 
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Really?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:32 am 
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Dash wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/how-soon-until-the-free-m_b_598305.html

Regarding that original article... the author is apparently an idiot...

He states:

Quote:
Predictably, BP has lied or misrepresented the truth all along the way.

* Before a drop of oil was spilled, they deliberately refused to invest in crucial failsafe mechanisms to prevent this sort of tragedy in the first place.

Yet, if you follow his own link, it talks about the availability of two different types of casing, one that is more secure, and one that is more flexible in application and reuse. They chose the more flexible (higher short term cost, supposedly less expensive long term..) option. From reading the article, the problem is not with the type of casing used, but in the mistakes made while inserting the casing, such as insufficient testing by the company doing the work, and/or poor management by the staff on board. However, none of that supports his statement. Continuing to the next item...

Quote:
Following the rig explosion, they detained workers who witnessed the Deepwater Horizon explosion.

Which is rich, considering he uses as evidence of this misstatement, his own previous erroneous statement. However, if you continue to follow the links to the original article, it was not BP that detained the workers, as he clearly states, but the company that actually owns and leases the rig to BP, Transocean.

Quote:
They consistently low-balled the estimated volume of oil leaking from the riser and blowout preventer, arguably to avoid harsher liability.

And again, if you follow the link he provided, it states clearly the estimate that was being used by BP was also from the Coast Guard, and the "evidence" being provided it is low is the opinion of a professor at Purdue (which apparently the author of that article cannot spell correctly). May or may not be accurate, but BP and Coast Guard have several times upped the estimates being released as their cameras have captured more images.

Quote:
They brazenly refused to stop using Corexit despite evidence that it was more toxic than other chemical dispersants.

And once, if you follow the links to the source article, you find these little tidbits...

Quote:
BP was responding to an EPA directive Thursday that gave BP 24 hours to identify a less toxic alternative to Corexit -- and 72 hours to start using it -- or provide the Coast Guard and EPA with a "detailed description of the alternative dispersants investigated, and the reason they believe those products did not meet the required standards."

BP spokesman Scott Dean said Friday that BP had replied with a letter "that outlines our findings that none of the alternative products on the EPA's National Contingency Plan Product Schedule list meets all three criteria specified in yesterday's directive for availability, toxicity and effectiveness."

Dean noted that "Corexit is an EPA pre-approved, effective, low-toxicity dispersant that is readily available, and we continue to use it."

So, the 'regulation' that lists what chemicals are to be used by the federal government also imposes other limitations, and with all those taken into account, only 1 product meets the standard. Of course, there are some valid questions about whether the dispersant should even be used, but guess who made that call? It wasn't BP.

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They ordered federal Coast Guard officers to shoo the press away from tar-balled beaches.

Um, no, they didn't. He thinks they did because he has lost the capacity to read his own links. The USCG even offered a response to the article he based his stupidity upon (bold is mine)...

Quote:
Neither BP nor the U.S. Coast Guard, who are responding to the spill, have any rules in place that would prohibit media access to impacted areas and we were disappointed to hear of this incident. In fact, media has been actively embedded and allowed to cover response efforts since this response began, with more than 400 embeds aboard boats and aircraft to date. Just today 16 members of the press observed clean-up operations on a vessel out of Venice, La. The only time anyone would be asked to move from an area would be if there were safety concerns, or they were interfering with response operations. This did occur off South Pass Monday which may have caused the confusion reported by CBS. The entities involved in the Deepwater Horizon/BP Response have already reiterated these media access guidelines to personnel involved in the response and hope it prevents any future confusion.


Quote:
This week, they not only denied the existence of massive underwater plumes of dispersed oil

Initially, yes, BP did say that the oil is on the surface and not in plumes under water, since well, oil floats. They have also said, though you won't find it on the Huffington Post, they are working with the scientists making the claims to determine their existence, and how to deal with them. There are also statements such as this gem from his Huffington article, which is corroborated in several articles looking at the nature of the plumes and how they were created:

Quote:
A third scientist, LSU chemist Ed Overton, said simple physics sides with BP's Hayward. Since oil is lighter than water, Overton said it is unlikely to stay below the surface for long.

But Hogarth and Cowan said BP's use of chemical dispersants to break up the oil before it reaches the surface could reduce its buoyancy, keeping it in deeper water.

Again... those dispersants...

However, don't take this as support or an apology for BP... I was just following the OP's linked article links.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:09 pm 
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As an aside, there is a nice article from a Tulane environmental toxicology professor discussing the fact that Corexit is not even close to toxic in the amounts it has been used in, and would require much, much greater use to begin to induce toxicity.

It is, in fact, the dispersant of choice due to its fast degradation and consequent environmental 'friendliness'.

As Sen. Landrieu has said- with 40,000 wells drilled in the gulf and only one leak to date, this is not a problem with poor regulation or poor planning, but rather with operator error and bad luck.

This isn't to say that BP shouldn't be held fully responsible for the damage (as should Transocean, etc), but rather that you shouldn't demonize the company or the method (deep water drilling) for a very rare accident. Now that it's happened, it can be more easily avoided in the future.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:25 pm 
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You can't blame the people who are behaving like people are programmed to do, emotionally respond and look for someone to absorb the blame as that causes an emotional relief. Once there is a party who is "to blame" and someone else "makes it all better" the mind relaxes because a false equation is equaled out in their heads.

Accidents happen and accidents themselves despite their temporal proximity to political plans do not denote something to be risky or in need of more regulation or anything else this primitive emotional response causes people to seek.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:40 pm 
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Ok, roll your Operator (Deep Sea Oil Rig) skill.
No worries, I have a 95% skill rating in that.
Well, there are a couple of penalties, due to depth, and complexity. Also, the crew you're working with is not 100%.
Hmm. Well, I better use a skill point to add 20% to my roll.
Ok, noted. Roll it.
Um... oh. What's a 00 on the chart?
You didn't.
Yeah, I did.
****. (flips pages) Ok, roll me another percentile. You want to roll low.
...
What?
00 again.
(looks) Jesus **** man. Get some different dice.
Well, it can't be that bad... can it?
Well, let's see. Hmm... massive explosion, rig lost, personnel losses... Ok, roll me another percentile.
...
Come on man.
Well, a 98 is better yeah?
(facepalm)
No?
No. Its not. Lets see, Shockwave from rig explosion severs connection... what was the operational progress?
Well, we had gotten about 90% or the way through fraccing.
Oh. Oh ****. Well, I hope you have Operation (Oil Rig Emergency planning) and Schmooze (Public) skills. Chart says that the spill is going to release up to (rolls) 300 thousand barrels of oil a day, and contaminate... Oh. The entire gulf coast region...
****.
Yeah, pretty much.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:16 pm 
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You absolutely need government in place to handle and enforce lawsuits.

Other than that, what is the government doing exactly? Basically coordination and monitoring.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
You absolutely need government in place to handle and enforce lawsuits.

Other than that, what is the government doing exactly? Basically coordination and monitoring.

And blaming/credit stealing. At least, they're trying.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:34 am 
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And enabling... Isn't there at least 1 governmental agency in charge of monitoring off shore drilling, safety, and such?

Yeah...


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:41 am 
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... spill.html

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:32 am 
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Aizle wrote:
When have corporations EVER shown themselves to be good wards of the environment?
How many Zero Landfill Waste government offices are there? Did you know IBM and Freescale (formerly Motorola SPS) have been working on lightwater silicon lithography for almost 20 years? Did you know they came up with the Mercury free ROHS compliant process back in the 1980s, long before the government started regulating that stuff? There are plenty of examples of businesses working to be wards of the environment. Unfortunately, no one really gives a **** about "the environment" anymore. The Global Warming/Climate Change Hoax has seen to that.

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Last edited by Khross on Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:42 am 
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Neither of those examples demonstrate the point you want to make Khross. Both are nothing more than the companies either working to line their own coffers with higher profits, or as smoke and mirrors to provide PR cover for their more destructive activities.

It can't be what you suggested. Otherwise, I would have to completely rethink my protest and consider the possibility that all those arguments about private business meeting demands and reacting to influences were true.

/lalalalala


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:30 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
Compared to the wonderful environmental situations that China and the USSR sponsored on behalf of their people. Look at both sides before you talk.


Yeah, because the USSR and Chinese governments are SO alike ours... :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:32 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
And the Free market is stepping in, BP is trying to fix it, while the government for once freely admitted they lack the skills, equipment, ability to solve the problem. Bp is going to pay the price for this, I have not heard any libertarian/conservative/what have you argue even a peep for no punishment.

If you are angry organize a boycott, don't buy from them, hit them where it hurts, vent that rage!


Punishment is all well and good, but I'm far more interested in prevention.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:40 am 
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If the punishment is of sufficient force to compensate for the total problems caused, prevention is guaranteed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:51 am 
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Ladas wrote:
If the punishment is of sufficient force to compensate for the total problems caused, prevention is guaranteed.


If BP were charged the complete cost of the clean up, repair and economic impact of this spill, it would cease to be as a company. So we all know that will not happen, so your point is irrelevant, regardless of how much I wish it were true or possible.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:54 am 
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No, the point is still relevant. Whether or not the US Government actually does one of the few tasks it is mandated to perform by the Constitution is another matter.

But then which organization is at fault for that outcome?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:11 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Compared to the wonderful environmental situations that China and the USSR sponsored on behalf of their people. Look at both sides before you talk.


Yeah, because the USSR and Chinese governments are SO alike ours... :roll:



You're right, the Chinese have far more economic freedom than we do.

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