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 Post subject: Helen Thomas and Isreal
PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:25 pm 
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http://bigjournalism.com/jdunetz/2010/0 ... nd-poland/

Get the hell back to Germany and Poland. I am sure her reporting is completely unbiased.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:08 am 
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On open letter to her from a Shimon Peres advisor:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContr ... ?id=177668

Spoiler:
Dear Ms. Thomas, I read on numerous Web sites the remarks attributed to you (and I did not see any denial) that we, the Jews must “get the hell out of Palestine” and “go home” to Germany or Poland. I am convinced that you are aware of the events which took place during the years 1939-1945 but, to be certain, I think it appropriate to tell you a little about my parents and their families.

My mother was sent to Palestine from Germany in 1933 with the rise of the Nazis to power by her farseeing parents. The British blockade, which prevented Jews fleeing the Nazi horrors from entering, made it difficult for her and only the pretext of coming on a tourist visit enabled her to enter and remain alive. Her older sister, Sarah, her husband and three children aged 12, 10 and seven did not succeed in finding a way of coming to Palestine and were sent by the Nazis to Poland and from there, their journey to the Auschwitz gas chambers, was short. I understand that it is there that you wish to send me.

My father, who lived in Austria, also showed resourcefulness and immediately on the German invasion and sailed to Palestine. On the way – again the British blockade – he was forced to throw his passport into the sea so that, heaven forbid, they would not send him back to Austria, another country you wished I was moving to. His older brother and his wife, who did not go with him, were murdered by the Nazis and their collaborators.

My parents, who, as mentioned, with lifesaving initiative, fled from Europe before they were murdered, arrived in a desolated and barren country, worked in orchards, barely supported themselves and, by the way, were happy with their lot. In 1947 upon hearing of the UN resolution on the partitioning of the country, they danced in the streets, even though most of the area of Israel was torn from its sovereignty. For brands who survived the fire, it was enough.


The Palestinians and Arab countries, who gained most of the area, refused to accept the UN resolution and began a war to annihilate us. Only three years had passed since the liberation of Auschwitz and again we – the Jews – faced the danger of annihilation. To our joy, 600,000 Jews were victorious over millions of armed Arabs. It appears that justice has power and strength of its own.

IN THE 62 years of our existence, we have had seven wars, thousands of terror attacks, buses which have exploded in streets, firing into schools, mortars fired on kindergartens. Yet you wish to exile us back to the inferno, as if nothing happened 65 years ago in Europe, as if our hands have not been stretched out for peace since the establishment of the state?

We were victorious in the wars imposed upon us by Egypt and we signed a peace agreement with it after yielding all the territory and all the oil. We signed a peace agreement with Jordan. We yielded all the territory and much water. We withdrew from Lebanon to the international border and, in return, we received Hizbullah katyushas on our citizens. We left Gaza and in return, we received massive firing on our citizens in the South. Are you aware, Ms. Thomas, that many children from Sderot and the area around Gaza wet their beds until a late age out of fear of the Hamas missiles? And it is us that you wish to exile? Why? Because you think that we are weak or because it annoys you that we are not defeated?

As someone, who throughout his adult life has been a member of the Israeli “peace camp,” notwithstanding you and your strange and angering views, my friends and I (and I hope also my government) will continue to turn over every stone and scour every corner to attain peace. Peace, which will enable us to the smallest extent to live and our neighbors, the Palestinians, to establish a country and to flourish and prosper. To achieve this, we are prepared to make great concessions, to give back all the territories gained as a result of wars which our neighbors forced on us. There is only one thing we want in return – life. A quiet life, a life without terror, a life without missiles, a life like the one you have in Washington and which I, in Israel, also deserve.

The writer is an adviser to President Shimon Peres.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:07 am 
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Dash's op ed doesn't reconcile itself with any of the arguments against Zionism.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:28 am 
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Should it have? I think the purpose was to rebut the absurd suggestion by Thomas that the Jews should get out of Palestine and go back to Germany and Poland.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:44 am 
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Yes. It should have, and the notion isn't all that absurd. At a minimum it is less absurd then having given them a country that belonged to someone else without their consent.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:20 am 
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By that token I suppose everyone in North America that was not originally here (whatever that means) should go back from whence they came too. Same with many people and places all over the world.

Thomas is very ignorant of the history of the region apparently and seems to think all the jews just showed up one day when Israel was created. She realizes how stupid her comment was, now that she was exposed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:03 pm 
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She apparently has resigned

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:04 pm 
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Helen Thomas Retires

About time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Resigned, retired... she's not going to take it anymore!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Damn I don't care for how she expressed her view but she does a very fine job in her role. She was the only one and I mean literally the ONLY ONE in the press corp that never balked at asking any President the hard questions.

Two weeks ago she asked Obama "Why are we still over there and don't give me any **** about weapons of mass destruction or terrorists." He stumbled and then went on for three minutes about 9/11.

I really don't think that these two events are not related.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:34 pm 
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Dash wrote:
By that token I suppose everyone in North America that was not originally here (whatever that means) should go back from whence they came too. Same with many people and places all over the world.


Not at all, Dash. It is very different when many people who were displaced, and had their homes stolen from them, for circumstances that had nothing to do with them and were largely geo-political, are still alive and are still very affected by those decisions.

The Jews should have had their homeland carved out of Germany.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:48 pm 
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Rynar wrote:

Not at all, Dash. It is very different when many people who were displaced, and had their homes stolen from them, for circumstances that had nothing to do with them and were largely geo-political, are still alive and are still very affected by those decisions.



Are we talking Israel or the US? ;)

In any case the creation of Israel is not what she said. She wanted the jews to "get the hell out of Palestine". Wherever that is, and whoever that means. Again, the inference is that the Jews havent been there for thousands of years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:53 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Dash wrote:
By that token I suppose everyone in North America that was not originally here (whatever that means) should go back from whence they came too. Same with many people and places all over the world.


Not at all, Dash. It is very different when many people who were displaced, and had their homes stolen from them, for circumstances that had nothing to do with them and were largely geo-political, are still alive and are still very affected by those decisions.

The Jews should have had their homeland carved out of Germany.


The British empire didn't include Germany, so how would they cede lands there, exactly?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:04 pm 
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They lost WW2.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:42 pm 
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I still don't get how the Holocaust is relevant to the Israel situation in any way. Ok, Britain probably wouldn't have given them the land if it hadn't happened, but the Palestinians don't care why the country was divided.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
They lost WW2.


The Ottoman empire lost WWI

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Oh waaah. She said something offensive. Let's ruin the long, distinguished career of a woman who said something we don't like.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:00 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
They lost WW2.


And?

You're essentially demanding return of lands to original ownership. As such: get off my property.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:32 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Rynar wrote:
They lost WW2.


And?

You're essentially demanding return of lands to original ownership. As such: get off my property.


If you can't make the distinction between tacit support for a return to all knowable ownership "rights", and a rejection of Zionism, then I have no time for you.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:20 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Oh waaah. She said something offensive. Let's ruin the long, distinguished career of a woman who said something we don't like.


She was a nut. I think this was just an excuse they needed to get her out. All the Bush press secretaries must be jealous.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:50 am 
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Dash wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Oh waaah. She said something offensive. Let's ruin the long, distinguished career of a woman who said something we don't like.


She was a nut. I think this was just an excuse they needed to get her out. All the Bush press secretaries must be jealous.

She has learned the joy of having been hoist with one's own petard.

Seriously, she's a hard nosed reporter, if she had someone on record saying something similarly inflammatory about another demographic she would have been all over them. Payback's a *****.

Hamlet - Act 3, Scene 4 wrote:
"For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar".

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:23 am 
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Carving a new Jewish state out of Germany wasn't going to happen. That would have put it right dead center in the middle of the Cold War's main event, which any idiot could see coming a mile a way. Not only that, Europe was already getting carved up left and right because Stalin picked the winning side and wanted to keep his spoils of invading Finland and Poland. That meant land already had to be carved out of Germany to make up for the land Poland wasn't getting back.

In any case there was nothing wrong with putting Israel where it was, especially under the plan that created 2 states. There were already plenty of Jews in the area, although, granted, the maps for what land would go to which state look like they were drawn by a drunk, In any case, however, it wasn't the Palestinian's exclusive land to begin with. They got pissed off because under the UN plan they wouldn't get ALL the land, and they wouldn't be a majority anymoe in the Jewish state.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:15 am 
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Rynar wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Rynar wrote:
They lost WW2.


And?

You're essentially demanding return of lands to original ownership. As such: get off my property.


If you can't make the distinction between tacit support for a return to all knowable ownership "rights", and a rejection of Zionism, then I have no time for you.


Perhaps you should be more clear with your point then. As it stands, my interpretation of your stance is this:

1) A sovereign nation ceded their owned territory to create a new nation.
2) You have a beef with this because Britain ceded land that "shouldn't" have been theirs.
3) Israel's existence ("Zionism") is therefore bad.


By arguing point (2), you're arguing that the right of conquerors to do with land as they see fit is "improper." At it's root, that's the same core argument as a return to "original" ownership of land.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:29 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
In any case there was nothing wrong with putting Israel where it was, especially under the plan that created 2 states.


Yeah, nothing wrong except the vigorous objection of every one of the new countries immediate neighbors... :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:09 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
In any case there was nothing wrong with putting Israel where it was, especially under the plan that created 2 states.


Yeah, nothing wrong except the vigorous objection of every one of the new countries immediate neighbors... :roll:


And this argument is the inverse of Rynar's, yet still spurious.

The British Empire controlled that territory. If the neighboring states had a beef with "outsiders" or "non-Muslims" or "non-Arabs" having control, they'd have attacked Britain's territory there. As long as it was Britain's though, it's Britain's to do with as it sees fit. Britain created a new "outsider/non-Muslim/non-Arab" country and ceded the land. This doesn't change the dynamic except that the territory is no longer controlled by Britain (and thus backed by the entire empire's military strength).

They attacked the new state of Israel because they thought it was weak (unlike the British) and could reclaim the territory, not because they had particular objection to the country itself. That developed later.

The key point here, though, is that you seem to think Britain, which controlled the territory, should have checked with the neighboring countries first; i.e. that their rights to the land should have been secondary to other concerns, such as original ownership or the opinion of other countries.

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