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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
If people gave a **** the market would respond. The market is saying that cheap gas is more important to people right now than clean wildlife.


A voice of reason in a sea d insanity.

All you guys blaming "the market" are just apologists for greedy and uninformed consumers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:28 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross,

Ok then, I'll ask you the same thing I asked Ladas. What, if anything, do you think should be done about the leak, both present time fix/cleanup and long term.


I'd like to know what your response to this ver question would be.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Compared to the wonderful environmental situations that China and the USSR sponsored on behalf of their people. Look at both sides before you talk.


Yeah, because the USSR and Chinese governments are SO alike ours... :roll:


Bikini Atoll


Compared to the messes the USSR and China have made, bikini atoll is small potatoes. Do you have any idea how many junk reactors were simply dumped in the Kara sea?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Just pointing out that when we want to do something we don't let little things like environmental consequences get in our way.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:47 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Just pointing out that when we want to do something we don't let little things like environmental consequences get in our way.


50 years ago.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:52 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Just pointing out that when we want to do something we don't let little things like environmental consequences get in our way.


When it's a major matter of national security in the middle of the cold war, no. other than finding a remote atoll to do it on.

We do, indeed, let the environmental issues get in the way a great deal more than the USSR or China, especially later on when those issues were better understood.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:07 am 
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Khross wrote:
Exactly what crime occurred? Seriously ...

What criminal behavior took place?

I don't believe there was any criminal behavior specific to this accident, though its possible. However, it does appear that there was criminal behavior in actions of the governmental group already set to enforce existing regulations. I doubt however we will ever see any in depth examination of this, as it would undermine the concept of government as the watchdog.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:55 am 
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Rafael wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Khross,

Ok then, I'll ask you the same thing I asked Ladas. What, if anything, do you think should be done about the leak, both present time fix/cleanup and long term.


I'd like to know what your response to this ver question would be.


First priority is obviously stopping the leak.

After the leak is contained, then there needs to be an investigation to determine what caused the issue. The investigation should focus on fact finding and root cause determination. Based on the results, I would expect recommendations around what (if anything) could have been done to prevent the issue, and recommendations on how to be prepared for a similar problem in the future.

If in the course of the investigation it was determined that there was criminal wrong doing, then I would expect legal action to punish those responsible. Additionally, if it was determined that there are gaps in the regulation or oversight needed to help ensure a similar issue doesn't happen in the future, I would expect new bills to be produced to attempt to correct those gaps.

Finally, I would expect that those responsible for the leak to be held accountable for all of the costs for cleanup and economic impact to the affected regions.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:03 am 
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I would like to hear from the inspector who gave it a passing grade 10 days before.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:19 am 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
I would like to hear from the inspector who gave it a passing grade 10 days before.


Indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
First priority is obviously stopping the leak.
Stopping the leak is already BP's top priority with the situation. First, it's costing them actual money; second, it's costing them potential money. More importantly, it's destroying both political capital and economic goodwill. I realize both of those terms are kind of amorphous and ambiguous, but the reality is that BP is going to suffer for a lot longer than you think or are willing to consider over this mess. It's highly unlikely they will be able to drill in international waters or other territories for some time. BP relies on international goodwill for its product harvesting, which means less cooperation from countries that do hold untapped oil reserves. It also means if BP wants to keep putting end products in the hands of its consumers, it's going to have to buy oil from already establishing drilling facilities and companies.

So, I'm not worried about the leak getting stopped, inasmuch as it absolutely makes sense and every indicator points to it being BP's top operational priority at the moment.
Aizle wrote:
After the leak is contained, then there needs to be an investigation to determine what caused the issue. The investigation should focus on fact finding and root cause determination. Based on the results, I would expect recommendations around what (if anything) could have been done to prevent the issue, and recommendations on how to be prepared for a similar problem in the future.
This is already taking place, but the government has no people in place with the knowledge or ability to make such determinations. BP's Petroleum Engineers, and other petroleum engineers, are already working on this problem; as are the engineers that designed the blow-out preventer and other safety mechanisms in place to prevent this kind of disaster. However, we're talking about roughly under water. And recovering the defective hardware at this point will only complicate the matter further. So, we need to deal with whatever is going on at 2400 psi and cold enough to freeze methane gas the moment it hits the pipes. And that's no easy matter. Like I said, the best guess I've heard from informed people is that the directed charges which cause the blow-out preventer to work ignited the methane in the pipe and caused an explosion. If so, it's going to be, at a month, 2 or 3 years before we're in a place to recover the faulty device. And that doesn't include all of the other problems in the chain of events and parts related to this.
Aizle wrote:
If in the course of the investigation it was determined that there was criminal wrong doing, then I would expect legal action to punish those responsible.
What possible crime could have occurred? What reasoning do you have for even invoking criminality?
Aizle wrote:
Additionally, if it was determined that there are gaps in the regulation or oversight needed to help ensure a similar issue doesn't happen in the future, I would expect new bills to be produced to attempt to correct those gaps.
Why do you think oversight and regulation are the answer? What knowledge or ability does the government possess to prevent these things? Everyone and their mother knew that deep sea drilling was dangerous. Everyone and their mother knew that there could be unforeseen complications. Again, what failure of regulation occurred? Because something bad happened? Well, bad outcomes aren't exactly a reason to get up in and arms and ruin a corporation or put people out of work or call down the government banhammer. I mean hell, I had explosive diarrhea yesterday from something I ate. I can probably tell you where it came from and what it was. Should the government fine the restaurant that sold me the food when there's no humanly possible way to detect the problem without ridiculous amounts of equipment that would delay my meal by 45 minutes?

That's an appropriate analogy to your solution. You keep saying, this needs government; demands government; government is the solution. Except, it's not. It's simply a bad outcome from a risky maneuver that failed. Maybe we should start suing or legislating responses to bad outcomes in the laboratory. We did it with doctors after all; and, if you had your way, we're going to do so with this oil spill. I mean, hell, what the hell do ocean floor earthquakes do with oil and methane deposits? That's another cause, too. And sometimes, we just don't know about it ... we need to regulate those right?
Aizle wrote:
Finally, I would expect that those responsible for the leak to be held accountable for all of the costs for cleanup and economic impact to the affected regions.
BP is already being held accountable for both the immediate and tangential costs of clean up and repair. As for economic impact to affect regions ... what constitutes a meaningful impact? Second, do you have proof of negligence or wrong doing? Because, honestly, unless you can prove either, incidental harm is again dictating policy and punishment based on a bad outcome, not intent to harm or intent to ignore safety.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:09 pm 
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Khross,

I don't know what crimes could have occurred, nor that oversight and regulation necessarily are the answer.

That is what the investigation should be determining.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross,

I don't know what crimes could have occurred, nor that oversight and regulation necessarily are the answer.

That is what the investigation should be determining.
No, see, what an investigation should be determining is what happened. The fact that you think criminality or oversight/regulation fall anywhere into the equation presumptively is problematic.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Khross,

I don't know what crimes could have occurred, nor that oversight and regulation necessarily are the answer.

That is what the investigation should be determining.
No, see, what an investigation should be determining is what happened. The fact that you think criminality or oversight/regulation fall anywhere into the equation presumptively is problematic.


No, it's called being thorough. I don't believe that they have or haven't happened, but we need to investigate the possibility. To assume they haven't happened is JUST as problematic as assuming they have happened. I assume nothing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Khross,

I don't know what crimes could have occurred, nor that oversight and regulation necessarily are the answer.

That is what the investigation should be determining.
No, see, what an investigation should be determining is what happened. The fact that you think criminality or oversight/regulation fall anywhere into the equation presumptively is problematic.


No, it's called being thorough. I don't believe that they have or haven't happened, but we need to investigate the possibility. To assume they haven't happened is JUST as problematic as assuming they have happened. I assume nothing.

At this rate, you'll be saying they need to prove their innocence instead of the government proving their guilt.

The horse goes in FRONT of the cart. There shouldn't be any investigation of criminal activity 'till there's probable cause to do so. If you can't point to a law that you believe has been broken, you don't have probable cause.

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PROBABLE CAUSE

A reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime. The test the court of appeals employs to determine whether probable cause existed for purposes of arrest is whether facts and circumstances within the officer's knowledge are sufficient to warrant a prudent person to believe a suspect has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Taskiss,

If you actually READ what I posted, you'll see that I said there should be an investigation to determine WHAT HAPPENED.

Only IF there was evidence of criminal activity should more be done.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
No **** Taskiss.

If either of you two actually READ what I posted, you'll see that I said there should be an investigation to determine WHAT HAPPENED.

Only IF there was evidence of criminal activity should more be done.

I did read what you wrote.
Quote:
I don't believe that they have or haven't happened, but we need to investigate the possibility. To assume they haven't happened is JUST as problematic as assuming they have happened.


You've admitted you assume a crime has been committed without probable cause.

Quote:
When there are grounds for suspicion that a person has committed a crime or misdemeanor, and public justice and the good of the community require that the matter should be examined, there is said to be a probable cause for, making a charge against the accused, however malicious the intention of the accuser may have been. And probable cause will be presumed till the contrary appears.
You have no grounds for suspicion that a crime has occurred...you've stated "I don't believe that they have".

Fishing for illegal activity with no evidence of illegal activity would, in my opinion, cause any evidence found from your fishing trip to be thrown out.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:14 pm 
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No, you haven't read what I posted.

I stated I assumed nothing. I don't assume a crime HAS or HAS NOT been committed. And I specifically called that out, your convenient partial quoting not withstanding.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
No, you haven't read what I posted.

I stated I assumed nothing. I don't assume a crime HAS or HAS NOT been committed. And I specifically called that out, your convenient partial quoting not withstanding.

You believe an investigation for criminal activity should be pursued without evidence to support initiating an investigation.

Perhaps you believe that your intentions can't be inferred from your suggestions, but it's transparent.

Just leave the whole witch hunt for criminal activity wait for an answer before suggesting it be investigated.

As for partial quoting...you forgot to fully quote yourself here
Quote:
but we need to investigate the possibility.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
You believe an investigation for criminal activity should be pursued without evidence to support initiating an investigation.


Um, no I don't. Nor have I stated anything that says I do. Stop making things up please, it's really pissing me off.

Taskiss wrote:
Perhaps you believe that your intentions can't be inferred from your suggestions, but it's transparent.

Just leave the whole witch hunt for criminal activity wait for an answer before suggesting it be investigated.


I am not interested in a witch hunt. I am interested in understanding what happened here and doing whatever is reasonable to prevent a similar incident occurring in the future. Nothing more than that. It may be that it was just an accident and human error. It may be faulty equipment. It may be the company taking a shortcut. It may be that the technology isn't mature enough to drill this deep safely. It could be any number of other things I can't think of. My ONLY interest is in finding out what happened so that we can use that knowledge to prevent future problems.

I really don't see how that is so hard to understand.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
You believe an investigation for criminal activity should be pursued without evidence to support initiating an investigation.


Um, no I don't. Nor have I stated anything that says I do. Stop making things up please, it's really pissing me off.

Perhaps you mis-spoke then...
Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Khross,

I don't know what crimes could have occurred, nor that oversight and regulation necessarily are the answer.

That is what the investigation should be determining.
No, see, what an investigation should be determining is what happened. The fact that you think criminality or oversight/regulation fall anywhere into the equation presumptively is problematic.


No, it's called being thorough. I don't believe that they have or haven't happened, but we need to investigate the possibility. To assume they haven't happened is JUST as problematic as assuming they have happened. I assume nothing.


And you're right, I don't understand ... seems you clearly want a criminal investigation.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Taskiss,

If you actually READ what I posted...


Oh, that's rich.

"Mr. Pot, theres a copper kettle on line one, he says it's something about hypocrisy."

Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Exactly what crime occurred? Seriously ...

What criminal behavior took place?


It's unclear if criminal behavior occurred or not. That would be what the investigation is for. It is entirely possible that nothing criminal occurred and it was just an accident.


Your initial statement regarding criminal investigation advocates, as has been amply demonstrated, a witch hunt.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:22 am 
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Apparently you can't understand that last sentence you quoted Vindicarre.

Seriously, you guys are like a bunch of **** 2 year olds.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:38 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:58 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Apparently you can't understand that last sentence you quoted Vindicarre.

Seriously, you guys are like a bunch of **** 2 year olds.


I think this is the point where I go to my old staple: Learn English.

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