RangerDave wrote:
DFK! wrote:
Elmo has merely stated, in concordance with the current and traditional definitions of "leftist politics" that greater collectivism [via force] = further left. No absolutes are stated there in terms of what is "left" and what is "right", and ultimately then what is "central."
Except that is neither the current nor the tradition definition of leftist.
How do you figure?
Let's check with the English language.
English wrote:
left·ist /ˈlɛftɪst/ Show Spelled[lef-tist] Show IPA
–noun
1. a member of the political Left or a person sympathetic to its views.
–adjective
2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or advocated by the political Left.
Hmm... looks like we should do a Google on "political Left," eh?
Yields plenty of results, but the first is our old friend Wikipedia. Not the best, but not the worst source. Let's check it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politicsInterestingly, Khross has already quoted the intro paragraph within this very topic. Let's re-quote it:
Quote:
In politics, left-wing, leftist and the Left are generally used to describe support for social change with a view towards creating a more egalitarian society.[1][2] The terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left generally supported the radical changes of the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization.[3]
Use of the term "Left" became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents". [4] The term was then applied to a number of revolutionary movements in Europe, especially socialism, anarchism[5] and communism. The term is also used to describe social democracy and social liberalism.[6][7]
Emphasis mine
Interestingly, this paragraph also gives us the basic history of the term, substantiating views opposite to yours. Let's examine more in depth the core stated tenets, per this source:
Economics:
Quote:
Leftist economic beliefs range from Keynesian economics and the welfare state through industrial democracy and the social market to nationalization of the economy and central planning.[19]
Nationalism:
Quote:
The question of nationality and nationalism has been a central feature of political debates on the Left. During the French Revolution, nationalism was a policy of the Republican Left.[25]
Social progressivism:
Quote:
Social progressivism is another common feature of the modern Left, particularly in the United States, where social progressives played an important role in the abolition of slavery,[30] women's suffrage,[31] civil rights, and multiculturalism.
Other elements are listed, but these seem to be the key to me. Thee first two disagree with you, and the latter is relatively independent of the discussion at hand.
Now, feel free to hold me to my own standard of providing more than one source, but know that before I'll comply, you'll need to provide some evidence that actually supports your contention that the dictionary, encyclopedic, or historical definition of leftist politics
isn't something that involves a controlled economy, increased collectivism, and/or nationalist tendencies.
RD wrote:
Fascism and various Latin American "strong man" dictatorships, for instance, are both currently and traditionally defined as being on the right.
By whom? People misusing and usurping the language?
RD wrote:
Hence my comment that you guys are engaging in revisionist labeling. Which is fine, by the way. Revisionist != wrong. Maybe the standard definitions need to be revised. Just be up front about what you're doing instead of pretending that the revisionism comes from the other side.
Again, rather than slandering us who are using the dictionary, encyclopedic, and historical terms, perhaps you should provide evidence beyond, essentially "Liberals call these guys right-wing, so they must be right-wing."
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