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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Ladas wrote:
I don't know the jurisdictional range, but something like OSHA would normally have the ability to conduct an investigation anytime a worker is injured or killed.

That said, the illegal activity that has been alluded to, but not recently, involved the governmental oversight/regulatory group in charge of these enterprises.
There have also been some reports from survivors of the rig explosion that BP was ordering them to cut corners.
And that's pretty much a load of hokum.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:27 pm 
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I wish BP would stand up to the pressure on this one. It'd be nice to see some businesses do that for a change in the last 18-24 months, instead of just rolling over and getting nationalized.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:40 pm 
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It's a British company, we can't nationalize them. There has also ben a fair amount of sabre rattling from England over this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:21 am 
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Rynar:

And the President has declared he has the authority to seize BP's U.S. Assets, put the money from said seizure into escrow, and manage damage claims against BP.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:58 am 
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Yeah, I read that. Can someone please enlighten me as to what this legal authority the WH claims it has to remove the claims process from BP and manage it independently?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:04 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Yeah, I read that. Can someone please enlighten me as to what this legal authority the WH claims it has to remove the claims process from BP and manage it independently?
Probably the same "legal authority" that has allowed him to nationalize General Motors, sell Chrysler to the Italians, vacate the normal hierarchy of debt on bankruptcy cases, and institute salary caps in private businesses; that is to say, because he said so.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:13 am 
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I figured that was the case. I also love the WH comment they "won't take BP's word" on the safety of their other drilling operations... wouldn't that be the same safety certified and documented by the government agency?

Yeah... go go empty rhetoric for the masses.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:16 am 
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Well, since the Office of Mineral Management Services is currently non-existing and slated to be "re-organized" ... things are bad.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:06 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Ladas wrote:
I don't know the jurisdictional range, but something like OSHA would normally have the ability to conduct an investigation anytime a worker is injured or killed.

That said, the illegal activity that has been alluded to, but not recently, involved the governmental oversight/regulatory group in charge of these enterprises.
There have also been some reports from survivors of the rig explosion that BP was ordering them to cut corners.
And that's pretty much a load of hokum.


Aparently not.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... are-email/

Quote:
In an e-mail written six days before the Deepwater Horizon explosion, a BP engineer called the well a “nightmare.” The e-mail was released Monday by the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, and it’s one of many company documents describing the risky, cost-cutting decisions that preceded the disaster.

“This has been a nightmare well which has everyone all over the place,” wrote BP engineer Brian Morel to a colleague. Morel wanted the company to use a “liner,” or sheath around the well that would keep gas from surging up the pipes and possibly exploding.

One such surge caused the Deepwater Horizon to temporarily shut down in early April, but BP opted against installing the liner, which would have cost an extra $7 million to $10 million.

“BP appears to have made multiple decisions for economic reasons that increased the danger of a catastrophic well failure,” wrote committee chairs Henry Waxman (D-California) and Bart Stupak (D-Michigan) in a letter to BP CEO Tony Hayward. “In several instances, these decisions appear to violate industry guidelines and were made despite warnings from BP’s own personnel and its contractors. In effect, it appears that BP repeatedly chose risky procedures in order to reduce costs and save time.”

In addition to BP’s decision not to use a liner, the committee’s letter describes four other examples of risky negligence.

Halliburton, the company responsible for cement in the well shaft, recommended using 21 “centralizers” to position the metal tube that ran down the center of the well. An off-center tube would cause cement to harden at different rates, producing gaps and channels that could weaken its structure and increase chances of failure. BP used just six centralizers.

A mid-April review of the well said “it is unlikely to be a successful cement job,” but BP declined to run a “cement bond log,” a day-long evaluation of the cement’s integrity. A crew that arrived expecting to perform the evaluation was sent home.

BP also failed to circulate muds that filled the well as it was drilled. That allowed mud that stayed on the bottom to absorb gas and debris, further weakening cement at the well’s base. BP then decided not to use a “lockdown sleeve,” which would have secured the top of the well, where it emerged from the seafloor.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:29 am 
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Oh, wow ... talk about taking things out of context.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/documen ... e.well.pdf

There's the "nightmare well" email. Go read it. 2 Engineers discussing safety opportunities and a ...

http://energycommerce.house.gov/documen ... Bypass.pdf

Approval for changes to the well design, with the submitted well design actually left out of the document. However, seems to me, the liners were being used and cement research for application was going on. But, you know, let's not include the well design that the MMS approved the day of those emails right? We'll just say they left it out and get this engineer fired so we can blame BP.

Kind of funny that when you read the actual evidence, the claims you're making are a load of hokum. Indeed, it's really funny to watch the Senate conduct a witch-hunt with evidence that only supports the "BP was criminally negligent" view point if you don't know what you're reading. I mean, hell, cement and liner spec sheets certainly indicate BP didn't use them right? Power Point Sales Pitches are great evidence of "negligence".

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:48 am 
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By the way, if you read the actual work orders included in that list, the things Wired is claiming were forewent are specifically specified by the engineering manifests for the well and ongoing work. I guess it's just convenient to claim that it's all BP's fault without reading the documents right?

Here are some great quotes that dispute your little blurb:

Quote:
14. Test casing and blind shear rams (per APD requirements) while out of the hole
preparing lockdown sleeve equipment. (2500 psi wi 14 ppg mud)

Quote:
Notes:
• Do NOT slow displacement rate other than directed.
• To have a greater chance to bump plug on float collar:
1. Caliper -20% of casing with Tri-Mic's to determine a more accurate
10. (Do NOT use mill or book specs.)
2. Calculate mud compressibility based on actual conditions.
3. Factor in rig pump efficiency.
• Whenever you attempt to wash-down, you have a greater chance of
sticking subsea casing with additional ECD or creating a packing off
problem due to cuttings bed you are pushing.• When closing diverter sub, pipe should be moving at all times.
• After closing diverter tool, go back to circulating slowly (no more than 15
SPM) and start washing to bottom immediately.
• If you plan on using boost line prior to landing hanger, do NOT drop ball
early. Circulate through diverter prior to dropping ball. (This prevents
debris from plugging diverter sub and causing high shear out pressures.)
• All pup joints and cross-overs must be free of "bore-backs" or square
shoulders (less than 1/8" transition) and must have high angle tapers to
the ID from the root thread in the box. Tapers should be at least 30
degrees. *Special attention should be given to the TIW valve below the
Cement head. This is to prevent hanging-up the DP dart during
displacement. A Teflon bushing on top of the valve assembly will help
transition the dart cleanly.
So ... yeah ...
BP ordered Deepwater Horizon to cut the corners stated in your article despite having pages of specific procedural instructions mentioning all those things ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:50 am 
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Khross,

And your response to the testimony from other drillers that they did not follow industry norms? Your response to the testimony from workers that they did not follow industry norms?

"Hokum" is a bold statment there, and you're placing the burden of proof on yourself by stating this. Perhaps you want to back off that statement and say something to the effect of "accusations are inconclusive"?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:57 am 
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I write specs for projects as the designer... Contractors ignore specs when they can.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:00 am 
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Arathain:

People are blaming BP without acknowledging the fact that, as Ladas notes, the platform was operated by a contractor. If the contractor failed to operate using documented and approved specifications, the situation is such that verifying their failure to operate as such is 1) difficult and 2) not BP's fault in the sense everyone is trying to make it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:04 am 
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There's no doubt that BP will be punished, but the appropriate place for that to occur is in the courts where their liability will translate as economic punishment, not criminal.

I don't understand how folks are leaping from "BP made mistakes" to "BP acted criminally".

Unless, of course, there are folks that want to escalate this issue to promote other agendas, perhaps forward some particular energy legislation. That I can understand.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:14 am 
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So BP has no culpability for the contractors it hires?

I'd also like to note that I have never stated that "BP has acted criminally".


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:19 am 
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Aizle:

I'm disputing the bold and erroneous claims of you're article and the U.S. Senate. The evidence provided indicates that BP not only did all of its homework, it actually go approval for the various iterations for the well based on conditions that could only be determined in drilling and setting up the well. They also had contingencies in place with required upfront capital in case the situation changed or did not perform as expected. And, as of yet, there's still no evidence that Transocean didn't comply with the specifications; especially seeing as how BP went through the trouble of keeping two independent oversight contractor groups on the platform as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:20 am 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

People are blaming BP without acknowledging the fact that, as Ladas notes, the platform was operated by a contractor. If the contractor failed to operate using documented and approved specifications, the situation is such that verifying their failure to operate as such is 1) difficult and 2) not BP's fault in the sense everyone is trying to make it.


That's completely irrelevant.

You are saying that the accusation that BP cut corners is "hokum". You don't know this any more than others know they did cut corners.

Furthermore, BP is responsible for it's contractors. If BP hired the contractor, it is their responsiblity to make sure they are qualified, and provide checks (inspections) to ensure that the work is being conducted per specifications. Assuming that the specifications were 100% flawless, BP still holds responsibility. They can transfer some or all of the liability to the contractor, but that's for them to do, not the federal government. The federal government will, and should, go after the drilling permit holder.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:25 am 
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Arathain wrote:
You are saying that the accusation that BP cut corners is "hokum". You don't know this any more than others know they did cut corners.
Actually, I pretty much do. I've done a ton of research on the matter. I've gone through the publicly available documents on the issue. I've reviewed the drilling permits and approvals that are readily available. I've looked at the financial statements regarding the platform and BP. BP did its due diligence. All this witch hunt really IS boils down to Americans wanting to punish someone for a bad outcome.

As for liability and responsibility: I'm aware that BP is responsible for its contractors, but apparently business models have changed so much and expectations have been so diluted that what you're saying is "true" in the sense of contemporary expectations. BP conducted inspections; hired inspecting contractors (one of which was Haliburton to make sure their product was used correctly). These things were done. And in the end, something bad still happened ...

Of course, we used to bond contractors in this country for events like this. And here, you're basically telling me they functionally aren't responsible for their own work because BP held the permit.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:45 am 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain wrote:
You are saying that the accusation that BP cut corners is "hokum". You don't know this any more than others know they did cut corners.
Actually, I pretty much do. I've done a ton of research on the matter. I've gone through the publicly available documents on the issue. I've reviewed the drilling permits and approvals that are readily available. I've looked at the financial statements regarding the platform and BP. BP did its due diligence. All this witch hunt really IS boils down to Americans wanting to punish someone for a bad outcome.


LOL. You actually think that this is something that you can do with any degree of confidence from an "armchair"?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:49 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Arathain wrote:
You are saying that the accusation that BP cut corners is "hokum". You don't know this any more than others know they did cut corners.
Actually, I pretty much do. I've done a ton of research on the matter. I've gone through the publicly available documents on the issue. I've reviewed the drilling permits and approvals that are readily available. I've looked at the financial statements regarding the platform and BP. BP did its due diligence. All this witch hunt really IS boils down to Americans wanting to punish someone for a bad outcome.
LOL. You actually think that this is something that you can do with any degree of confidence from an "armchair"?
And you can claim BP is responsible from an "armchair"? Or that Congress can? Doesn't that standard go both ways? Did you even read the "sources" for the Wired article? They have all these documents that dispute their "claims", but they don't bother to "cite" their claims? So which is it?

I can absolutely make the determination that the response of Congress and the media is people wanting to punish BP for a bad outcome. No one has produced any evidence to the contrary.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:05 am 
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If you read through my comments on this whole thread, you'll note that I haven't made any claims as to BP's culpability or no. I've only put forth some of the information that's come out from, to be blunt, people who professionally do this kind of investigative reporting and overall investigations. But even then, we have only begun to touch the surface of this investigation and coming to any conclusion at this point is premature in the extreme.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:31 am 
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Aizle:

Yes, professional investigative reporting is something that still maintains credibility in this nation ... hell, I can't even type that sentence with a straight face.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:42 am 
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It's certainly a hell of a lot more credible than some anonymous poster on a forum on the internet.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:46 am 
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Aizle wrote:
It's certainly a hell of a lot more credible than some anonymous poster on a forum on the internet.
Oh? Except for you, right? I mean, you read Wired, who's doing investigative reporting, so you must be more credible than say ... me, who simply read the documents they say contain these "truths" in their article right? Did you go through the source documents linked at the end? Did you read them? Did you think for yourself anywhere in this process?

See, that's the problem in your world and with your posts so often: you don't give any credibility to thinking for yourself. Obviously someone else has to be more right, know more, and be able to tell you what to think: these people are journalists or politicians or what have you ...

And, in my world, the most credible source I know is the source I can validate myself. Given the information Wired presented vs the claims they made, I can't validate their conclusions. And given the information they gave, you can't validate them either. But, in your world, they still have credibility. Of course, the only difference between Wired and Me is the quality of the web presentation.

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