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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:08 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
As to my attitude - my attitude is that your persistent derails into unimportant semantics tirades is a waste of everyone's time.


"Semantics tirades?" I'm sorry, I find the meaning of words and the usage of language important. I suppose you don't. That's fine, it just makes you ignorant.


No, it doesn't. It simply means that I don't find value in getting bogged down in discussions over semantics that have no potential to change the outcome of the original discussion as you do. It does not make me ignorant. How full of yourself are you that you think that simply because someone does not place the same value on a discussion as you do, that they must be "ignorant", "retarded", or "stupid"?

As for the tirade, yeah, I think so. If you're so upset that you feel compelled to throw out personal attacks, I think tirade qualifies.

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Ara wrote:
If you would like my attitude on this to change, please stop wasting everyone's time. Or, at least, mine.
Feel free to not read what I write when I attempt to correct your blatant misuse of language. I mean, you already ignore those corrections in a desire to prove people wrong on the internet, so you might as well just skip them in the first place.


I could, and often do. But when you come right out off the bat tossing personal attacks, I'll generally play.

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In the meantime, I'm going to continue to point out misuse of language.


And you are of course entitled to do so. And nobody (in this forum) will stop you from trying to bully others to make your points, either.

And no, I won't reciprocate by pointing out your (just as frequent) flawed language use, unless it's important to the discussion. But I will call you out on your emotional tirades and bullying.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:58 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Not a joke at all. I've seen it in the paper twice now, and apparently the Russians did it years ago several times with leaks on land.

I didn't see any references to yield though, and I have no idea how you'd go about getting the device down there.


Well, it sounds like it could work, but... it seems like it would be very difficult to predict how the substrate would react. Seems there is potential to blow a much more serious hole than we already have.

Using nukes is not a plan. Using nukes is what you do when a plan fails.


I've heard recently that the Russians succeeded 4 times out of 5 with this approach and the devices were on the order of 60 kilotons. That means a B61 mod 3 if we went through with this; only thing we have with a setting of 60 kilotons or thereabouts. A B83 might but I don't know it's lower settings and I wouldn't want to waste a B83 on that anyhow.

edit:

This blog has diagrams that explain how the technique would work and references Russian successes with it... plus the fact that they were on dry land. It gives a figure of 1.5 times Hiroshima, or about 30 kilotons. It's a blog so take for what it's worth but it does avoid the usual blogosphere hysterics and predjudicial language.

The New York Times of course, reveals that our idiotic test ban and other arms treaties make it politically unacceptable to use a nuke.. at least for now. One wonders at the idiocy of a treaty that bans using a nuclear blast for a purpose like this in pursuit of disarmament. In fact, one wonders at the idiots who pursue disarmament at all, but that's beside the point although this illustrates their dogmatic stupidity perfectly. A nuke may or may not be a good idea, but "OMFG NUCLEAR FREE WORLD ARMS TREATIES IRAN NORTH KOREA" is not a reason against it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:18 pm 
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Is a nuke really necessary? Couldn't they accomplish the same thing with (one or more) large conventional explosions?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:13 am 
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Midgen wrote:
Is a nuke really necessary? Couldn't they accomplish the same thing with (one or more) large conventional explosions?


I don't think the nuke is at the point of being necessary yet, but no. The difference in power is enourmous, several orders of magnitude. To get the same effect we would need to get thousands of tons of explosives down to the sea floor and drilled in place as opposed to one nuclear device weighg a couple thousand pounds at most. You'd never get the same level of heat, either. PArt of the point of a nuke is that the incredible temperatueres will fuse the rock together.

With the nuke being buried in the sea floor (I gather from the articles by a couple thousand feet) and already being 5,000 feet deep in the water, radioactivity is not going to be a serious issue. Even if it fails, we will not have a "radioactive oil leak". There may be some radioactive bits, but in the volume of the ocean it's below trivial.

There's no reason to avoid a nuke just because it's a nuke. We've been given this idea that "nukes are just BAAAAADDDD!" since the 1960s and the start of the Doomsday Clock idiocy and the like. This is just another product of the absurd fears imposed on the public conciousness starting with Robert McNamamara and Kennedy and their encouragement of ignorance, aided and abetted by scientists and peace activists who had no understanding of what they were talking about.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:32 am 
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Obama is missing a golden opportunity here... he could fulfill is promise of closing the detention center at Gitmo, avoid the trails and plug the hole all at the same time.

He'd be an instant hero.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:07 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Obama is missing a golden opportunity here... he could fulfill is promise of closing the detention center at Gitmo, avoid the trails and plug the hole all at the same time.

He'd be an instant hero.


I'm almost afraid to ask, but what are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:31 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Obama is missing a golden opportunity here... he could fulfill is promise of closing the detention center at Gitmo, avoid the trails and plug the hole all at the same time.

He'd be an instant hero.


Terrorists are biodegradeble, dude. The plug won't hold indefinately.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:41 am 
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Yeah but you could slap a nuke on them, toss em in some SCUBA gear and let them do the 72 Virgin shuffle down to the leak. Done and done.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:55 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Obama is missing a golden opportunity here... he could fulfill is promise of closing the detention center at Gitmo, avoid the trails and plug the hole all at the same time.

He'd be an instant hero.


I'm almost afraid to ask, but what are you talking about?

Joke.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Obama is missing a golden opportunity here... he could fulfill is promise of closing the detention center at Gitmo, avoid the trails and plug the hole all at the same time.

He'd be an instant hero.


I'm almost afraid to ask, but what are you talking about?

Joke.


I'm sorry to admit that I don't get it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:11 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I'm sorry to admit that I don't get it.
I'll take "current events" for $200

What could close Gitmo, eliminate the oil trails and cap the gushing well, all at the same time?

What is "Big f-ing nuke", Alex?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I'm sorry to admit that I don't get it.
I'll take "current events" for $200

What could close Gitmo, eliminate the oil trails and cap the gushing well, all at the same time?

What is "Big f-ing nuke", Alex?


A big nuke would only do any one of those things, unless we're talking some nuke that is far beyond anything we've ever built on earth.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:54 pm 
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it just got a little bit worse, you'd think they'd have a back up one ready for deploy just in case things like this happen.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/107521 ... rine-crash

BP removes oil cap after submarine crash
Quote:
Oil gushed unchecked on Wednesday from the leaking well in the Gulf of Mexico after BP's containment system was removed for repairs when a robotic submarine crashed into it, US officials said.

"We had an incident earlier today, they noticed that there was some kind of a gas rising," said Admiral Thad Allen, the US official coordinating the response to the disaster.

"They indicated the problem was a remotely-operated vehicle had bumped into one of the vents," Allen said, adding that the "top hat" container was being checked and could be reinstalled later on Wednesday.

That would leave crude gushing into the ocean at a rate of between 30,000 to 60,000 barrels a day, according to the latest US government estimates. The containment system had been capturing roughly 25,000 barrels every 24 hours.

The containment system, which works by trapping leaking oil and then siphoning it up to a container ship, was shut down after gas was detected in a part of the unit that contains warm water, which is intended to prevent icy hydrates from forming and clogging the system.

Allen said the collision with the robotic submarine, which is operated from the surface by remote-control, appeared to have closed a vent, creating pressure that pushed material up into the water unit of the containment cap.

The cap was being examined and if no hydrates were found reinstallation would begin later on Wednesday, Allen said, warning that if the siphon pipe had to be refitted the operation, "will take a considerable amount longer."

In a day of bad news for the oil spill response, Allen said two people involved in the containment and clean-up efforts had been reported dead.

One was killed in what he described as "an accident regarding a swimming pool," but no details were provided about the death of the second individual, who had been working off the Mississippi shore, Allen said.

He offered his condolences, and said police were investigating the second death.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:08 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
A big nuke would only do any one of those things, unless we're talking some nuke that is far beyond anything we've ever built on earth.

Jokes are subject to literary license. Really really.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:21 pm 
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The concept is to have the Gitmo detainees chained to the tactical nuclear device as it is lowered into place, then with one boom solve the oil leak and terrorist detainee problem - sending the terrorists to their Islamic heaven and reward - or to hell depending on your faith I guess.

Poor taste, but popular right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:27 am 
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Micheal wrote:
The concept is to have the Gitmo detainees chained to the tactical nuclear device as it is lowered into place, then with one boom solve the oil leak and terrorist detainee problem - sending the terrorists to their Islamic heaven and reward - or to hell depending on your faith I guess.

Poor taste, but popular right now.


Chaining them to something you're lowering to the ocean floor would render the nuke a tad redundant, don't you think?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:53 am 
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Arathain got it. Must be our backgrounds.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:02 am 
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Some people just like chains... and whips.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:14 am 
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Hmm, the chaining them to the nuke is the manner in which the evidence is destroyed. What detainees? They escaped, en masse. We have a 25 million dollar reward posted for each of them, dead or alive, bodies required.

Try collecting.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:16 pm 
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Rynar wrote:

What were they supposed to do?


Dig the relief well before they dig the main well, so if an explosion occurs, the gulf of Mexico isn't utterly destroyed for the foreseeable future. Or, they could not cut corners when it comes to drilling the main well in order to save some money at the margins. Or, they could come to the conclusion that digging for oil in a situation where they lack the capacity to deal with the worst possible outcome is a bad idea to begin with.
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This is a new problem with no known solutions.


This is not a new problem. The only thing new about it is the depth of the well. The solutions they are using are not innovative - they are the same solutions we have had for the last several decades. Why? Because private industry has very little motivation to develop the technology to clean up after themselves, and a great deal of incentive to develop new ways to drill for oil.

This disaster is a shining example of why the "free market" is simply a myth. The free market cannot undo the harm that has been done to the environment we all share. The free market, in fact, is directly responsible for the accident. A lack of real regulation with real teeth combined with the profit motive may very well have killed the Gulf of Mexico. And for what? The obligation to a few shareholders?

We keep hearing how BP has the most brilliant minds at work on this problem because they are a private business with tons of cash. Horsecrap. If they had the most brilliant minds on this, those minds would have made sure to take the precautions necessary to avert this kind of disaster. They would have hired the kind of people who would not have cut corners on the site. They would have the kind of leadership that would not be enjoying yacht races while the earth bled out into the ocean. They would double the amount of money they had to have wrung out of their hide by the President, and they would have done so immediately.

Instead, they are going to fight tooth and nail to pay as little as humanly possible to the people most affected by this disaster of their creation. These externalities are the very thing that shows the "free market" ideology to be the sham that it has always been. The invisible hand didn't cause this - greed did. The invisible hand can't fix this - only government action can. The invisible hand ignores human nature, and it lacks the capability to fix the damage done by free market greed-based choices in a time frame that's relevant to the people most affected.

In Canada, they have to drill the relief well before they drill the main well. Here in the US, we let our regulatory agencies snort coke of the *** of the oil industry lobbyists they were ****. Real regulation, real laws that force companies to take care of the environments they profit from, are the only way to actually bring these corporations to heel and prevent these kinds of disasters in the future.

This is, without a doubt, the fault of free market ideologues. It is, as the article posted says, very much the fault of the insanity that is Ayn Rand's philosophy (and those like it). The people who adhere to those sorts of philosophies *do not care* about the harm they do to others in the name of seeking profit. They don't care if the Gulf of Mexico becomes a dead sea. They don't care about the wildlife they kill, or the impact this accident has on the Gulf Coast. They don't care about the economic impact it has. They care about one thing - their money.

Me, me, me, me, me. No matter the impact on you. It's all about me. My profit. My company. My bonus. My golden parachute. Me. You can't regulate me! That's socialism! But I can poison your ocean and destroy your coastline. I can kill your sea life and destroy your fishing industry. I can do all of that because I'm at liberty, and you can't do anything to stop me because that's socialism.

That's the insanity that ideologies like Ayn Rand, and others like her, espouse. The government is only there to protect the interests of the enfranchised, and no one else. Equality under the law? Such ideologies give those concepts lip service, but in the end, they leave it in the waste basket. Ayn Rand never believed people were equal. And neither do her adherents. They all look at themselves as if *they* belong in the Special Club. The group of uber-persons that would mesh well in John Galt's little gully.

This disaster is the result of decades of deregulation and corporate power broking in Washington. We, as a country, need to decide if America is going to remain on it's knees to the most powerful corporate interests, or if we will take the reins back and put those corporations, and the corporate assholes who think themselves untouchable at the top, back in their place. I hold out little hope of that ever happening.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:54 pm 
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Welcome back, Monte.
Monte wrote:
It's all about me. My profit. My company. My bonus.

That's true, and it's inherently more honest than claiming the moral high ground while furthering a hidden agenda.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:56 am 
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Monte wrote:
It's all about me. My profit. My company. My bonus.

I would trust the person who says that infinitely more than the person who says, "I'm going to help you; make sure everything is fair and safe for you. I'll take care of you, just give me your money."

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:07 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Monte wrote:
It's all about me. My profit. My company. My bonus.

I would trust the person who says that infinitely more than the person who says, "I'm going to help you; make sure everything is fair and safe for you. I'll take care of you, just give me your money."

And indenture your kids, and their kids...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 6:17 am 
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Ahhh, but they don't say that part. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:08 am 
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Remember guys, oil companies really don't care if their huge expensive drilling rig blows up, or if the oil they're trying to drill for to, you know, refine and sell, gets spilled all over the place instead of going in their tanks. They don't care about any of that, only about their bottom line.... oh... wait...

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