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 Post subject: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:18 am 
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The Supreme Court has overturned the Chicago handgun ban.

I'm a bit surprised, but gratified. The scope of that legislation was way too wide. I can see banning guns from government buildings, schools, etc., and private establishments should have the right, but to ban handguns from an entire city screams to be overturned.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:31 am 
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http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf

Bah been reading the majority opinion for too long. I wanted to post.

It is now incorporated.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:34 am 
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Really? Quote the specific passage where they officially incorporate the first.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:49 am 
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Page 3, d.
"The Fourteenth Amendment makes the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms fully applicable to the states Pp. 19-33"

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:52 am 
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Works for me ...

So, who dissented?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:55 am 
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Who do you think :p

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:06 am 
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Müs wrote:
Who do you think :p


Yo mama?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:07 am 
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Now only the 9th circuit could be dumb enough to rule against the 2nd amendment!

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:43 pm 
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The Embarrassing Second Amendment
Sanford Levinson
The Yale Law Journal, Vol. 99, No. 3 (Dec., 1989), pp. 637-659
Published by: The Yale Law Journal Company, Inc.

You can find the article transcribed on several sites around the internet. If you want to read an "authentic" version of the text, the text is available at JSTOR. That said, for those of you who think this is only a small victory or just a technical issue ...

I will point out that Sanford Levinson wrote the defining "Leftist" explanation for the Second Amendment 20 years ago; his opinions still stand:
Quote:
One of the best known pieces of American popular art in this century is the New Yorker cover by Saul Steinberg presenting a map of the United States as seen by a New Yorker, As most readers can no doubt recall, Manhattan dominates the map; everything west of the Hudson is more or less collapsed together and minimally displayed to the viewer. Steinberg's great cover depends for its force on the reality of what social psychologists call "cognitive maps." If one asks inhabitants ostensibly of the same cities to draw maps of that city, one will quickly discover that the images carried around in people's minds will vary by race, social class, and the like. What is true of maps of places --that they differ according to the perspectives of the mapmakers--is certainly true of all conceptual maps.

To continue the map analogy, consider in this context the Bill of Rights; is there an agreed upon "projection" of the concept? Is there even a canonical text of the Bill of Rights? Does it include the first eight, nine, or ten Amendments to the Constitution? [1] Imagine two individuals who are asked to draw a "map" of the Bill of Rights. One is a (stereo-) typical member of the American Civil Liberties Union (of which I am a card-carrying member); the other is an equally (stereo-) typical member of the "New Right." The first, I suggest, would feature the First Amendment [2] as Main Street, dominating the map, though more, one suspects, in its role as protector of speech and prohibitor of established religion than as guardian of the rights of religious believers. The other principal avenues would be the criminal procedures aspects of the Constitution drawn from the Fourth, [3] Fifth, [4] Sixth, [5] and Eighth [6] Amendments. Also depicted prominently would be the Ninth Amendment, [7] although perhaps as in the process of construction. I am confident that the ACLU map would exclude any display of the just compensation clause of the Fifth Amendment [8] or of the Tenth Amendment. [9]

The second map, drawn by the New Rightist, would highlight the free exercise clause of the First Amendment, [10] the just compensation clause of the Fifth Amendment, [11] and the Tenth Amendment. [12] Perhaps the most notable difference between the two maps, though, would be in regard to the Second Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." What would be at most a blind alley for the ACLU mapmaker would, I am confident, be a major boulevard in the map drawn by the New Right adherent. It is this last anomaly that I want to explore in this essay.
In particular, I'll post his introduction because it explains the basic political dichotomies present in our governance today.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:07 pm 
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Interesting thing, people wanting to weaken a constitutional right. They blindly act as though it wouldn't fray the fabric of the entire tapestry.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:34 pm 
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AS an side, that idiot knows nothing about making maps.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
As an aside, that idiot knows nothing about making maps.
You should, perhaps, read more thoroughly before making such judgments.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:52 pm 
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It is satire, not map making.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:59 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
As an aside, that idiot knows nothing about making maps.
You should, perhaps, read more thoroughly before making such judgments.


No, Khross, I should not.

You, however, should stop telling people to read more or educate themsevles. You don't have the foggiest idea what I'm referring to. I'll give you a hint though: maps made in different places may look a little bit different, but the reason has nothing to do with culture. It has to do with mathematics and with the purpose the map is made for.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:44 pm 
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DE, the 'map', see above, is a social obsevation/statement, not a true map.

It is a purposeful distortion, a technique frequently used in marketing and social commentary, used to make a point.

Your earlier statements indicated that you did not know the picture or understand the purpose of it. Khross was commenting on that and that you had appeared to comment without knowing the subject matter. While the Professor can be a bit annoying at times, the comment was more along the lines of familiarize yourself with the material referenced than go back to school.

Chill dude, you are taking offense where none was intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Diamondeye:

Cognitive Mapping

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:26 am 
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Micheal wrote:
DE, the 'map', see above, is a social obsevation/statement, not a true map.

It is a purposeful distortion, a technique frequently used in marketing and social commentary, used to make a point.

Your earlier statements indicated that you did not know the picture or understand the purpose of it. Khross was commenting on that and that you had appeared to comment without knowing the subject matter. While the Professor can be a bit annoying at times, the comment was more along the lines of familiarize yourself with the material referenced than go back to school.

Chill dude, you are taking offense where none was intended.


Which is why I mentioned it as an aside. Things like that aren't maps. They're pictures; they may resemble maps, but they are not maps. The "New Yorker" cover he references illustrates this; it is a picture of how a stereotypical New Yorker sees the world but it is not a map at all; it cannot be used to go from any point to any other with any remotely useful degree of accuracy.

An actual map is a drawing that allows you to reach one point from another. In the simplest form, such as a "strip map", it's simply a route, usually not to scale, with text references telling the follower distances and landmarks. It can only be used to get to one end point or the other or to a point in between. "X marks the spot" for example; you must start at the boulder at the southern point of the island to find "X".

As maps get more complex we have localized maps which are (usually) scale drawings of features on the ground, and can be used to get to any point within the confines of the map. At this level, scale is useful but not strictly necessary; for example if you go to Cedar Point you can get around with the not-to-scale map in the brochure because there are always prominent landmarks available.

Once a map gets much bigger than a small town, however, scale starts to become important, and moreover, the curvature of the Earth starts to affect things. In order to make such maps, a model of the surface of the Earth, known as a sphereoid, is needed. This is then used to create a datum, or coordinate system. The most common modern system is WGS 84.

The problem, however, is that no one has ever created a totally accurate sphereoid of the Earth, mainly because it isn't a totally uniform, symmetrical sphereoid. This was more of a problem before the space age because a lot more guesswork was nvolved in any given sphereoid. This resulted in datums such as the Berlin Datum or Tokyo Datum and others from the late 19th and early 20th century which were very good close to their "0" point; ofen better than worldwide datums, but deteriorated more rapidly around the world. In fact, if you were to go to, say, the coordinates of the State House of Texas, in downtown Austin, by using a Tokyo datum map from pre-WWII, you would find yourself roughly a kilometer from the actual State house.

Satellites have allowed us to model the surface of the Earth far more precisely, although still not perfectly. Nevertheless this accuracy allows us to narrow accuracy down to within 1 meter using GPS under optimal condition.

This is why maps made in different locations will look a bit different. They're using different datums; in fact you'l even see differences between local maps such as those made based on the North American Datum 1927 and those based on NAD 1983. The earlier one was based on the Clarke Ellipsoid of 1866, the latter on the GRS 80 ellipsoid. The former was created based on a manual survery of the entire continent, the latter incorporated far more satellite information. If you were to compare a map based on the 1927 datum to a Japanese map from the same general period based on the Tokyo datum you would find differences, and you would find each system to be most accurate closest to its 0 point; in these examples Meade's Ranch in Kansas, and of course, Tokyo.

So yes, there will be different maps in different places, but not because of the way people think; because unless they're using a common datum, mathematical differences are inevitable. The professor is evidently not aware of this; what he's descrbing as "maps" in his analogy are not maps at all, but pictures just as the "New Yorker" cover is a picture.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:28 am 
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Diamondeye, those can, indeed, be valid maps. Are you aware of the differences in standard map projections? The New Yorker cover is simply a very un-standard, non-geometric projection. Any point in the US can be plotted there; it is simply not to scale in either distance, nor direction.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:15 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Diamondeye, those can, indeed, be valid maps. Are you aware of the differences in standard map projections? The New Yorker cover is simply a very un-standard, non-geometric projection. Any point in the US can be plotted there; it is simply not to scale in either distance, nor direction.


No they can't. I just got done discussing in detail the differences between sphereoids and datums, so I don't know why you would think that I'm unfamiliar with projections.

A map projection is an attempt to represent a sphereoid on a plane and necessarily makes certain sacrifices of some of the sphere's properties in order to preserve others. The "New Yorker" "map" doesn't do that; it is not a projection. You can plot a point on it but it will not help you get there in any meaningful sense because it is not to scale, and, unlike the other not-to-scale maps I discussed, provides no other means for you to determine the distance and only the vaguest idea as to direction.

So no, it cannot be a "valid" map since it cannot serve any useful purpose as a map. It may serve other useful purposes (specifically, expressing a styrical point) but it is not a map.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Diamondeye:

That's nice and all, but perhaps you should click the link ... I mean, if the compound term merits a wikipedia entry, it might, just might refer to a specifical morphological construct that has nothing to do with your pedantry.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye:

That's nice and all, but perhaps you should click the link ... I mean, if the compound term merits a wikipedia entry, it might, just might refer to a specifical morphological construct that has nothing to do with your pedantry.


I read the link. It was tagged for being written like a personal reflection and really didn't convey much useful information.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:27 pm 
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Except, the definition wasn't ...

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:44 pm 
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Perhaps it would be wise in this discussion to actually refer to the definition of the word map:

Merriam Webster wrote:
Main Entry: map
Pronunciation: \ˈmap\
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin mappa, from Latin, napkin, towel
Date: 1527

1 a : a representation usually on a flat surface of the whole or a part of an area b : a representation of the celestial sphere or a part of it
2 : something that represents with a clarity suggestive of a map <the Freudian map of the mind — Harold Bloom>
3 : the arrangement of genes on a chromosome —called also genetic map


See definition 2 (bolding mine). A cognitive map is a perfectly acceptable type of map.

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 Post subject: Re: Chicago handgun ban
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:34 am 
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http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

Mayor Daley is trying ohh so hard.

Quote:
The ordinance, which Daley urged the City Council to pass, also would :

_ Limit the number of handguns residents can register to one per month and prohibit residents from having more than one handgun in operating order at any given time.

_ Require residents in homes with children to keep them in lock boxes or equipped with trigger locks.

_ Require prospective gun owners to take a four-hour class and one-hour training at a gun range. They would have to leave the city for training because Chicago prohibits new gun ranges and limits the use of existing ranges to police officers. Those restrictions were similar to those in an ordinance passed in Washington, D.C., after the high court struck down its ban two years ago.

_ Prohibit people from owning a gun if they were convicted of a violent crime, domestic violence or two or more convictions for driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Residents convicted of a gun offense would have to register with the police department.

_ Calls for the police department to maintain a registry of every handgun owner in the city, with the names and addresses to be made available to police officers, firefighters and other emergency responders.

Those who already have handguns in the city—which has been illegal since the city's ban was approved 28 years ago—would have 90 days to register those weapons, according to the proposed ordinance.

Residents convicted of violating the city's ordinance can face a fine up to $5,000 and be locked up for as long as 90 days for a first offense and a fine of up to $10,000 and as long as six months behind bars for subsequent convictions.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:37 am 
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For the most part, those restrictions don't seem too onerous. I don't see the "prohibit residents from having more than one handgun" thing passing muster, but that's me.

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