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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:14 pm 
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Wow. So "second guess[ing]" the Federal government is now against the law. That's just a fantastically poorly worded argument. I really hope they take it to court and get publicly dressed down for the hubris behind that state of mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:16 pm 
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The guy just might be the despot I was hoping he'd be.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:19 pm 
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I'm not really sure what the argument against the law is anymore, all the arguments about profiling and it being an unfair burden kind of evaporated when they added that provision that presumes you are legal if you have a valid driver's license.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:46 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'm not really sure what the argument against the law is anymore, all the arguments about profiling and it being an unfair burden kind of evaporated when they added that provision that presumes you are legal if you have a valid driver's license.

It seems that AZ doing immigration law enforcement encroaches on federal prerogatives. Now, the fact that if the federal prerogatives involved immigration law enforcement AZ wouldn't have to do so seems to be irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:48 pm 
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Likely Holder will seek a "temporary injunction" baring them from enforcing the law until the suit is completed (kinda like he tried to get out of the moritorium). So that the law can be held up through the long appeals process. Unlike a private enity the fed can keep appealing without worrying about the money and this will likely go all the way to the USSC. Maybe he can put another crony on the jury between now and then and swing one.

Also Xeq I don't think that the federal executive can offically decide not to enforce any one law. Essentally the law is simply providing an additional penalty and enforcement process for a federal crime. There are lots of crimes today that be tried both as a federal and a state crime. Arizona is merely adding "unlawfully present in the United States" to the list.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm not really sure what the argument against the law is anymore, all the arguments about profiling and it being an unfair burden kind of evaporated when they added that provision that presumes you are legal if you have a valid driver's license.

It seems that AZ doing immigration law enforcement encroaches on federal prerogatives. Now, the fact that if the federal prerogatives involved immigration law enforcement AZ wouldn't have to do so seems to be irrelevant.


But using that as the basis it could then be expanded to all federal laws, such as Bank robbery it's a federal law but almost always prosecuted at the state level. The same could also be done with drug laws (CA is a good starting point for this). The federal government wants the states to enforce laws, but wants to pick and chose which ones.
What happens when the states decided which federal laws they chose to enforce.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:17 am 
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Leshani wrote:
What happens when the states decided which federal laws they chose to enforce.

This is the "check and balance" between the executive and the judicial, so having it as a check and balance between state and federal is OK with me. It's part of the big picture - part and parcel of the "consent of the governed".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:21 am 
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Taskiss:

I'm not sure what country you live in, but here in the U.S. the consent of the governed ceased to matter in 1861.

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Last edited by Khross on Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:25 am 
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It was just one little civil war, Khross, not the end of the republic.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:40 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
It was just one little civil war, Khross, not the end of the republic.
Really? Because last I checked, the notion of "consent of the governed" included the ability to leave a republic that no longer upheld its part of the covenant.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:46 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
This is the "check and balance" between the executive and the judicial

Are you familiar with Kagan's position on the balance of power?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:45 am 
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If Obama was pulled over in AZ after the 29th could a local law enforcement officer inquire as to his citizenship?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:09 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
If Obama was pulled over in AZ after the 29th could a local law enforcement officer inquire as to his citizenship?

If by inquiring about his citizenship you mean "can I see your license and registration please", then yes. If you mean, can I see your birth certificate, then the USSC will have to convene to determine if the officer has standing to ask such questions.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:11 am 
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Ladas wrote:
If you mean, can I see your birth certificate, then the USSC will have to convene to determine if the officer has standing to ask such questions.
Apparently no one has standing to ask such questions at the moment.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:27 pm 
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Because such a question is 1) insane and 2) implies a fraud has been committed where no evidence of said crime exists. By the way, anyone can *ask* the question. However, the President is not obligated to step and fetch to whatever tune such a person demands, nor to however that tune might change or refine itself over time to continue perpetuating the nutjob notion that he might not have been born where he was born.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Or he could just comply, and provide the documents required. Then again, the entirety of your personal philosophy revoves around the notion that people should be absolved of all personal responsibility, except, of course, for conservatives who must not only be responsible for themselves, but also for all those who choose not to be.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:56 pm 
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not possible that would mean transparency, integrity, and respect for the people of America.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:58 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
If Obama was pulled over in AZ after the 29th could a local law enforcement officer inquire as to his citizenship?

Assuming the highly unlikely possibility he would actually be driving ( :lol: ), he'd show his Illinois or DC driver's license and the question would never come up, as a valid DL serves as proof of legal residency/citizenship for the AZ law.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:20 am 
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I wonder if the state of AZ can counter sue the Federal government in this case for specific performance, and then collect damages when the federal government doesn't actually perform.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:39 am 
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Apparently Rhode Island already has a similar AND IS ENFORCING it:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? ... IyZGUyMjg=

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United States v. Arizona — How 'Bout United States v. Rhode Island

Well whaddya know? It turns out that Rhode Island has long been carrying out the procedures at issue in the Arizona immigration statute: As a matter of routine, RI state police check immigration status at traffic stops whenever there is reasonable suspicion to do so, and they report all illegals to the feds for deportation. Besides the usual profiling blather, critics have trotted out the now familiar saw that such procedures hamstring police because they make immigrants afraid to cooperate. But it turns out that it’s the Rhode Island police who insist on enforcing the law. As Cornell law prof William Jacobson details at Legal Insurrection, Colonel Brendan P. Doherty, the state police commander, “refuses to hide from the issue,” explaining, ”I would feel that I’m derelict in my duties to look the other way.”

If, as President Obama and Attorney General Holder claim, there is a federal preemption issue, why hasn’t the administration sued Rhode Island already? After all, Rhode Island is actually enforcing these procedures, while the Arizona law hasn’t even gone into effect yet.

Could it be because — as we’ve discussed here before — the Supreme Court in Muehler v. Mena has already held that police do not need any reason (not probable cause, not reasonable suspicion) to ask a person about his immigration status?

Could it be that just this past February, in Estrada v. Rhode Island, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the First Circuit upheld the Rhode Island procedures, reasoning that, in Muehler v. Mena, the Supreme Court “held that a police officer does not need independent reasonable suspicion to question an individual about her immigration status…”?

So, we have a Justice Department that drops a case it already won against New Black Panthers who are on tape intimidating voters in blatant violation of federal law, but that sues a sovereign state for enacting a statute in support of immigration enforcement practices that have already been upheld by two of the nation’s highest courts. Perfect.


Something tells me if RI were on the southern border, the federales would have sued them too.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:20 am 
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It's because our municipalities refuse to enforce the state law.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:30 am 
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Gibbs stammering after being asked about sanctuary cities.

http://www.thefoxnation.com/media/2010/ ... stammering

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:49 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Apparently Rhode Island already has a similar AND IS ENFORCING it:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/? ... IyZGUyMjg=

Something tells me if RI were on the southern border, the federales would have sued them too.


SO.. since federal precedent has already been set.. shouldn't Az technically be in the clear?

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:50 pm 
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Again, RI isn't enforcing it. It is lip service. the state pays benifits to illegals, and the individual municipalities refuse to enforce the state law.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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